Well, if those posts of yours are the only source of authority ... I guess I don't understand your question, but those posts aren't any sort of authority.
-- 1409 has only to do with a child of a foreign mother, who resides with a father --
But just a couple posts ago, you thought that 1409 also applied to a foreign father. And I don't recall any requirement that the citizen-mother reside with the father, in fact, there is none.
-- they are the ones who must apply after birth --
Are you saying that 1409 foreign mothers who reside with (but aren't married to, 1409 being an out-of-wedlock provision) a father have to apply?
-- at birth and by birth do not [have to apply] --
8 USC 1409 is an at birth statute.
1409 -- The provisions of paragraphs (c), (d), (e), and (g) of section 1401 of this title, and of paragraph (2) of section 1408 of this title, shall apply as of the date of birth to a person born out of wedlock if ...
And to complete the statutory reference for "at birth" purposes, here are 1401 and 1408 ...
1401 -- The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person; ...
(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years:
Provided ...1408 -- Nationals but not citizens of the United States at birth Unless otherwise provided in section 1401 of this title, the following shall be nationals, but not citizens, of the United States at birth: ...
(2) A person born outside the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are nationals, but not citizens, of the United States, and have had a residence in the United States, or one of its outlying possessions prior to the birth of such person
So, do 1409 parents (father, mother, either, both, you tell me what you think, if there is any distinction) have to apply, or not? You seem to be saying they do, and then that they don't because citizenship at birth and by birth do not [have to apply].
You've cited state department manuals in the past. What is the correct reference in those manuals for birth under 1401(g)? The first blockqote below IS NOT THIS REFERENCE, I cite it only because it is interesting, and states the effect of the language in the US constitution.
a. U.S. citizenship may be acquired either at birth or through naturalization subsequent to birth. U.S. laws governing the acquisition of citizenship at birth embody two legal principles:At any rate, in order to prosecute a claim for US citizenship, the person born abroad must establish certain facts to the satisfaction of the competent governing authority. The claim is adjudicated, meaning evidence must be presented, and "the judge" (who can be a consular officer) makes findings based on the evidence.(1) Jus soli (the law of the soil) - a rule of common law under which the place of a person's birth determines citizenship. In addition to common law, this principle is embodied in the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and the various U.S. citizenship and nationality statutes.
(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline) - a concept of Roman or civil law under which a person's citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called "citizenship by descent" or "derivative citizenship", is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As U.S. laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed. ...
See 7 FAM 1131.4-1 for Establishing Blood Relationship. Using the same link, see too 7 FAM 1131.5 Suspected False or Fraudulent Citizenship Claim of Minor Child, which touches on the potential extent of the proceeding and evidence that can be brought to bear.
Fir birth in wedlock, the evidence includes a marriage certificate and birth certificate, where the names of the husband and wife on the marriage certificate have to match the names of the father and mother on the birth certificate. That isn't conclusive, see the sections of manual at the link.
Even so-called "automatic naturalization" involves a procedure.
[[So, do 1409 parents (father, mother, either, both, you tell me what you think, if there is any distinction) have to apply, or not? You seem to be saying they do, and then that they don’t because citizenship at birth and by birth do not [have to apply].]]
This question of yours shows, I think, where the whole issue between you and I of misunderstanding stems from- The mother in 1401 is not an alien- the mother in 1409 is an alien- she obviously would have to apply for citizenship, and her child would not be an NBC if the father did not meet the requirements of 1409, and the child was I nthe custody of the father either- I never said an alien mother, or father hwo didn’t meet requirements laid out in 1409 didn’t need to apply- never- The child of a mother as outlined in 1401 does not have to apply- They are autromatically citizens as outlined in my posts 261 and 262
-——(a) In general A child born outside of the United States automatically becomes a citizen of the United States when all of the following conditions have been fulfilled:
(1) At least one parent of the child is a citizen of the United States, whether by birth or naturalization.
(2) The child is under the age of eighteen years.
(3) The child is residing in the United States in the legal and physical custody of the citizen parent pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent residence.-———————
[[So simple, even a cave man could understand it. ]]
Yeah, so simple the supreme court and lower courts have already settled the issue and cleared up any ambiguity over the terms of the issue- oh wait.............
[[Even so-called “automatic naturalization” involves a procedure. ]]
Courts disagree with that hence the reason this issue which seems ‘so simple a caveman could understand it’ hasn’t been settled yet- You and I can disagree as to why- but if it’s so simple- and so cut and dried, then no person not born on soil to 2 us citizen parents should be allowed to run- period-
[[Fir birth in wedlock, the evidence includes a marriage certificate and birth certificate, where the names of the husband and wife on the marriage certificate have to match the names of the father and mother on the birth certificate.]]
But this is where it gets tricky- and it’s the point where the ‘Ted is legal’ advocates assert that this ‘act’ isn’t to confer citizenship upon the child but to confirm it- The child is born a citizen- and this only applies in cases where there is Suspected False or Fraudulent Citizenship Claim of Minor Child.