Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

To: Cboldt

Actually, I didn't know that, although barring any other consideration, I suppose it could be assumed, barring what is otherwise well enough known as exceptions to application of the word "all". Such as; at least one parent being a citizen of the United States, at time of the child under consideration's own birth.

Really? Where we can find that so neatly cut and dried as it was just expressed from under your own pen?

The problem I've having with it, is that I'm finding it impossible to consider, much less believe that a person who is born as a citizen is not for all other intents and purposes to be considered a natural born citizen.

That's sounds like twisting things around just a little, while all but denying that he was born a citizen, naturally so under the conditions of his birth, as those conditions were recognized to convey citizenship at the time of his birth.

One cannot be born a citizen, and then need to otherwise go through further process to become a citizen (or else be made a citizen at some later time, according to statues adopted after time of one's birth) if one was born a citizen in the first place, as far as I can tell.

You speak of controlling legal precedent.

The only things I've seen so far don't quite cut it, as far as denying that the man was born as a citizen of the United States, albeit born on foreign soil.

There is precedent in the cases of George Romney (Mitt Romney's father, who was born in Mexico) and John McCain, born in what was the then entitled Panama "Canal Zone", having had the conditions of their own births examined, and found to fit the qualification to be able to run for office of president.

Romney's went to court (didn't it? I'm no expert), McCain's birth was challenged in the Senate (if memory here serves). Did the Senate make John McCain a natural born citizen, or was McCain born a citizen at birth (naturally, under considerations of the law at the time of his birth) and that was merely determined to be the case when the details of his birth (and the laws) were examined in a Senate hearing?

You do know of those cases? Or are you the one who is "choosing to ignore" those precedents, while otherwise appearing to me to be bluffing that there is "controlling legal precedent" which would absolutely make Cruz into be "naturalized by statute", rather than natural born citizen by birth under conditions which also happen to be delineated under statutory laws, sufficiently extant at time of his birth.

That's the greater part of what "natural born" means, isn't it? Naturally a citizen at birth, under laws in effect at the time of one's birth. What other definition is there?

Those same statutes hold other delineations of who is to be considered born a citizen of the United States without making distinction between "born as citizen" and quote-unquote "natural born citizen".

I myself, was born of parents who themselves were born as citizens (going back to the mid-1700's even). Since I am among those who's conditions of birth are also listed in the same statutes which stipulate who is to be considered born a citizen, by your reasoning, apparently it could be argued that I would not qualify to run for that office (under the Constitution, and the further effectual laws which delve into the meaning of what it is to be born a citizen) since I too am among those who's conditions of birth are delineated in the same statues upon which Senator's Cruz's status as "born a citizen of the United States" needfully rely.

203 posted on 02/06/2016 3:42:51 AM PST by BlueDragon (TheHildbeast is so bad, purty near anybody should beat her. And that's saying something)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies ]


To: BlueDragon
Congress is empowered by the Constitution to 'establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,' Art. I, S: 8. Anyone acquiring citizenship solely under the exercise of this power is, constitutionally speaking, a naturalized citizen.

Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971)

-- Romney's went to court (didn't it? I'm no expert), McCain's birth was challenged in the Senate (if memory here serves). Did the Senate make John McCain a natural born citizen, or was McCain born a citizen at birth (naturally, under considerations of the law at the time of his birth) and that was merely determined to be the case when the details of his birth (and the laws) were examined in a Senate hearing? --

I don't know the details of old-man Romney's case (I do know he was born in Mexico, I just haven't read the legal briefs). S.Res.511 is a farce. It claims the naturalization act of 1790 contains a definition, and after a bit of handwaving says essentially, "a naturalized citizen is a natural born citizen." McCain's birth is covered by the predecessor to 8 USC 1403. McCain is a naturalized citizen, same as Cruz, and same as all other citizens born abroad.

-- Naturally a citizen at birth, under laws in effect at the time of one's birth. What other definition is there? --

Citizen under the constitution, and not citizens under the constitution.

-- I myself, was born of parents who themselves were born as citizens (going back to the mid-1700's even). Since I am among those who's conditions of birth are also listed in the same statutes which stipulate who is to be considered born a citizen ... --

You are covered by the constitution, even if the statute is out of view. Art IV, Sec. 2, and "born in the US" part of the 14th amendment.

Cruz is not covered by the constitution, if the statute is held out of view. His citizenship depends on an Act of Congress.

204 posted on 02/06/2016 4:08:41 AM PST by Cboldt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies ]

To: BlueDragon
Romney's went to court (didn't it? I'm no expert)

I followed the 1968 race quite closely. At the time, the notion of following the Constitution like it was black-letter law was at an all-time low (dissent from the "living constitution theory" was almost unknown). I was taught in high school that NBC = born here (pure jus soli), but Romney never got enough traction for THAT (as opposed to other issues) to become a factor in the outcome. He made his national name as an early "civil rights" supporter, the 1967 Detroit riots devalued that "achievement". By the spring of 1968, after his claim that his support for Vietnam was because he had been "brainwashed", he was out of the picture and a court challenge was never even considered.

By the way, I don't see any court getting involved in this in the until an event prescribed by the Constitution such as the electoral college meeting in December happens. The Constitution does not recognize "running for president", "being nominated", "presidential elections" as anything other than optional activities, and so any state's designation of a person as "eligible" or "ineligible" falls purely under the plenary power of its Legislature to appoint the state's electors.

208 posted on 02/06/2016 4:26:05 AM PST by Jim Noble (Diseases desperate grown Are by desperate appliance relieved Or not at all.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson