This is the second time you've referenced in this thread something similar (post #36: Baptism signifies being in the spiritual community...)
There's several things I'm having trouble tracking with this line of thought in light of the actual passages we find early in Romans 6 & elsewhere:
* 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were
** were baptized into Christ Jesus
***were baptized
****into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Those issues include...
This is the same issue I have to constantly deal with the Mormons, & it's troubling to think you're reflecting more Mormon theology here than Biblical theology: And that is the ** phrase in Rom 6:3 above: "baptized into Christ Jesus..."
Do you know how many times on FR I've had to constantly tell Lds we are primarily baptized into Christ Jesus HIMSELF...and not simply into a church, a sect, a church body, a denomination, or an organization?
Yes, I know Paul mentions being "baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13)...
...but this "body" is more a "new ONE flesh" in very similar ways that a marriage is a "new ONE flesh"
...we're not so much baptized into one of XYZ spin-off denominations, but into a PERSON!
...I know we like to "spiritualize" things & talk as if this "body of Christ" is something primarily ethereal ...
...just like to tend to make marriage more about being a "couple" than how Jesus and Genesis describes it ("no longer two, but one (flesh)"...as if we don't know what the phrase "no longer" means...
...yet the PRIMARY NT emphasis is not to place the stress on how you've twice so far stressed being baptized into a "spiritual nation" -- a "spiritual community" -- because, frankly, to way too many evangelicals, baptism is merely a spiritual horizontal act initiated by men who are "choosing" to do so...
Sorry, Daniel. Scriptures such as the above and Galatians 3:27 puts the proper focus in place -- that we are baptized into a PERSON! Jesus Christ Himself!
...for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3:27; cf. Col. 2:11-12)
The baptistries in Augustine's day were OUTSIDE the church buildings to remind people that one passed thru the waters of baptism into the church...vs. passing thru the church building waters as if we are dunked into some particular denomination.
You know, I think I know a reason why some Evangelicals might want to play that down, and it has to do with the real truly HISTORICAL participation in the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus Christ...and we know no mere "symbolic" tokenness can accomplish something so powerful...just as we know that forgiveness of sins, cleansing of sins, justification, salvation, rescue from judgment, regeneration/new birth, adopted sonship, the Gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. are ALL power narratives of the ACTUAL divine transactions that take place...and guess what? ALL of these are linked directly to baptism in the NT...and I will return to that below in #3...
You know when a Biblical writer repeats the exact same verbiage ... like when Isaiah does (Is. 41:13) about the "right hand"...or when Jesus starts off a key phrase with "verily, verily, I say unto you"...it means indeed "pay close attention":
And Paul carefully arranges the tense twice in Romans 6:3: ...were baptized into"
Why?
Because man is 100% passive when it comes to baptism (yes, I know these baptism verses in the Bible militate versus your apparent unBiblical "choice" theology).
See also:
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ..." (Gal. 3:26-27) [Not who "chose" baptism]
You see, the very essence of baptism is NOT self-administration! The summon to be baptized -- like in acts 2:38 -- isn't grammatically focused on the word "let" ... but on "be baptized"...Let's not turn what is a clear passivity of reception into some man-generated activity!
And why is to be baptized primarily a passive reception?
a. Because being baptized INTO A PERSON is a profound spiritual DIVINE act...no ONE of us has that power, authority, etc:
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God— 13 children born NOT of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)
Did you catch that? Did YOU decide to be born? NO? Oh, but you decided to be REBORN? (Oh. Yeah, good thing Lazarus decided to "signify" his new life by all that power & energy he showed walking out of his grave & having his grave-clothes shed!)
And yet John clearly says that rebirth isn't "of human decision"?
Tell us Daniel...why do you ignore John's clear words from John 1:12-13?
Well, all of this then is VERY CLOSELY tied into my third point...
That you keep using an extra word "signifies" that isn't to be found in all of these baptism verses (just like too many Evangelicals likewise attach the word "ordinance" to baptism -- even though that word isn't found attached to any of the baptism verses, either!)
Paul doesn't say baptism is some mere "horizontal sign" that we wave before the world...as if we were mere placard-holders in what goes on in baptism...
Paul cuts right to it...we were baptized into his death 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death...
This isn't just some flowery language drudged up. We HAVE been buried with Him...as we WERE baptized into His death...This is NOT anything that you or I can carry out!
God did that. We've become a 100% grace-based full-beneficiary recipient & hence receive full benefits of all Christ did for us as a free gift (Col. 2:12-15; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 3:21). And don't go stealing glory of powerful divine things that neither you, nor I, can do...
Is to forgive sins something only God does? (That's what Jesus indicated) [The forgiveness of sins is repeatedly designated thru baptism -- either directly in so many words...like Acts 2:38...or as a washing away of sins (Acts 22:16), or as a cleansing (Eph. 5:26), or as in sprinkling the hearts clean from an evil conscience (Heb. 10:22).]
This cleansing -- as these verses show -- is clearly God's work, God's activity -- and HE has chosen to link baptism to that process:
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11)
We "were washed"...we didn't do some self-lice removal and self-flea removal...
Paul, also in Galatians 3, mentions how being "justified by faith" & becoming "sons of God" and being "baptized into Christ" are all interchangeable descriptions of Christian initiation. If baptism is merely some self-generated "inward act" done by mere men, what? Can we "justify" ourselves?
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit... (Titus 3:5) [see also 1 Peter 3:21]
Can we save ourselves, or is it purely an act of God?
Can we initiate adoption proceedings? Or is this an act of God that is linked to baptism? (Gal. 3:26)
Are we self-rescuers from judgment? Or is this something only God can do, and He has chosen to link this thru baptism? (1 Peter 3:20-21)
We are given a new nature. Is this something only God can do, and He has chosen to link this thru baptism? (See John 3:5 to go with Titus 3:5)
ALL: If you want to know perhaps the #1 untold distinction of how various Christians treat baptism, it lies in this very question:
Do you see to be baptized into Christ Jesus as an act of God, or as an act of man.
Those who choose the latter will come up with Biblical words -- yet unassociated biblically with baptism...like ...
...ordinance
...tokenism
...symbolism
...signifies
...witness
...an "self-administered" "outward act" on man's part to "demonstrate" -- as if we were mere demonstrators...placard-holders -- what God has previously done in giving us faith...
What these weasel words resist is that in the New Testament being baptized is more clearly id'd as an instrument of conversion -- not magical water...but as Ephesians 5:25-26 says:
...just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her BY the washing with water through the word...
The Acts' pattern is clear, whether its Pentecost, Paul's conversion, the Ethiopian eunuch, or the Samritans, or the Ephesian dozen in acts 10, or Cornelius, or the Philippian jailer and his family...the pattern is all uniform: baptism is part & parcel of the Gospel and people are power-deniers if they want to de-link baptism to the Holy Spirit as its direct Agent, or de-link baptism to New Life/Salvation, or de-link baptism to empowering of God's Word-in-action, or de-link baptism to forgiveness, or de-link baptism to justification, or de-link baptism from direct adoption into His family.
Those are ALL vertical aspects with full divine authority, full divine power enacted...they are not simply "horizontal" signs .... placards we wave around to show what God did thru OTHER means...
All of these divine actions are DIRECTLY linked to baptism!
You must wear out keyboards! Good thing we are rewarded according to the quality and effort of labor.
I will see what i can do latter after a church meeting with God's help. Now going out to move some old snow.
Once again you are overreacting in looking at what i did not say in a certain context and leaping to a conclusion because i did not say what needs to be said in a formal teaching on the subject. The Lord Jesus did not say everything that could be said on the subject of salvation when He told the rich young man to sell all and follow Him to be perfect.
Of course I know that being "baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) means being baptized into a person, Christ, who places us into His body.
Because man is 100% passive when it comes to baptism (yes, I know these baptism verses in the Bible militate versus your apparent unBiblical "choice" theology).
Only by making "passive" refer to an act of man not being an act because he did it by God's grace. But which is the wrong way to deal with salvation being by faith without works, for as explained before, this does not mean man is comatose in conversion, though not merit of works was the cause.
Works done due to God's moving and enablement does not means that are not works, as all works that God will reward are a result of that, and yet they are called works, and under grace faith is recompensed in recognition of them. (Heb. 10:35; 1Cor. 3:8ff) .
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God— 13 children born NOT of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13) Did you catch that? Did YOU decide to be born? NO? Oh, but you decided to be REBORN?
This is a superficial analysis, as analogies seldom have complete correspondence in every aspect, but only in the aspect they are invoked for, which in this case is who one is born of and by. That being of God and by God does not negate the FACT that human decision is involved, even if this choice is due to God's moving and enablement.
That you keep using an extra word "signifies" that isn't to be found in all of these baptism verses (just like too many Evangelicals likewise attach the word "ordinance" to baptism -- even though that word isn't found attached to any of the baptism verses, either!)
So now we cannot use any words which are descriptive of what Scripture teaches? So much for metaphorical. The clear fact is that Rm. 6 clearly signifies baptism as representing death and rebirth, but since you say it is wrong to use it then it must be dropped.
[The forgiveness of sins is repeatedly designated thru baptism
And where is the word "designated" found in all of these baptism verses? What Acts 3:28 says is if one repents and is baptized, which is a human decision, then he will be forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, though it is actually the faith behind the act which appropriates it. (Acts 10:43) And thus by telling them to so something that required that faith then they would assured have what it appropriated. God purifying their hearts by faith.(Acts 15:7-9)
We've become a 100% grace-based full-beneficiary recipient & hence receive full benefits of all Christ did for us as a free gift (Col. 2:12-15; Titus 3:4-7; 1 Peter 3:21). And don't go stealing glory of powerful divine things that neither you, nor I, can do...
There is no stealing in teaching a act which is motivated and enabled by God is indeed an act, and a work, though not meriting justification.
ALL: If you want to know perhaps the #1 untold distinction of how various Christians treat baptism, it lies in this very question: Do you see to be baptized into Christ Jesus as an act of God, or as an act of man.
Baptism by the Spirit into the body, which is by the kind of faith which is expressed in water baptism but can happen before that act, is an act of God. The act of water baptism by a believer is an act done by man who is moved and enabled by God to do so in obedience to God, which confesses the faith which appropriates forgiveness and justification, just as Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. But who manifested that by offering Issac, which act "justified," validated, him as being a believer. .
If water baptism effects regeneration then it would be an operation of God via an act by man who does so bcz he is moved and enabled by God to do so. Thus even under your doctrine man is not passive in conversion, while in both cases the act of water baptism does not merit justification, though God blesses obedience.
Moreover, if you are going to exclude baptism as being a work under the premise that God moves and enables him to do so, the we must exclude all works which God does thru believers from being works, though God recognizes them as works and rewards them.
If baptism is merely some self-generated "inward act" done by mere men, what? Can we "justify" ourselves?
That is a strawman, as i never said or inferred that water baptism was any inward act, nor that man effects any, but that God moves and enables man to believe on the Lord Jesus, and which faith is confessed in baptism, but which act does not merit justification.
Even if "the forgiveness of sins is repeatedly designated thru baptism," meaning baptism is the instrumental means by which one obtains forgiveness, yet this God-enabled act is still one which infants are not shown as being able to make, or need to.
The Acts' pattern is clear, whether its Pentecost, Paul's conversion, the Ethiopian eunuch, or the Samritans, or the Ephesian dozen in acts 10, or Cornelius, or the Philippian jailer and his family...the pattern is all uniform: baptism is part & parcel of the Gospel and people are power-deniers if they want to de-link baptism to the Holy Spirit as its direct Agent, or de-link baptism to New Life/Salvation, or de-link baptism to empowering of God's Word-in-action, or de-link baptism to forgiveness, or de-link baptism to justification, or de-link baptism from direct adoption into His family.
Then you have a contradiction which is remedied by understanding that it is the faith that baptism requires and expresses that appropriates justification, not an act.
For as Peter preached,
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
And as these souls manifested,
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (Acts 10:44-46)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:47-48)