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The Low-Information Evangelical, Part 2
Renew America ^ | August 29, 2014 | Marsha West

Posted on 08/30/2014 8:36:05 AM PDT by WXRGina

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To: boatbums

I’m still trying to figure out what happened and WHEN it happened.


141 posted on 09/03/2014 5:25:59 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: rwilson99; daniel1212

Thanks for your response. I looked the article over and found no direct evidence presented that would show canonicity for any of your deuterocanonical books. That shouldn’t be too surprising, because it’s a very difficult standard to meet. Paul quotes a heathen philosopher when he says we live and move and have our being in God. That does not equate to Paul sanctioning the full text of that writer’s work as canonical. From this we derive a principle that more than mere quotation or allusion or even verification of truthfulness of the particular words quoted is necessary to achieve canonicity for the complete text out of which the quote is taken.

For example, you mention 2 Maccabees as playing a prominent role in Matthew 22:23-33. Not really. We begin with the fact that no certain determination can be made the text of Maccabees was involved at all. Your author suggests that the mere mention of the resurrection as a point of contention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees should be enough to implicate 2 Maccabees. This is so far from a serious argument as to be laughable. Resurrection as a general principle was well attested in several books of the standard OT canon. For that job at least, no deuterocanonicals need apply. Here is an introductory surevy of the subject:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/JanFeb11/Old.Testament.Teach.Resurretion.html

Your author also makes the argument that because Hanukah was still being observed in Jesus’ day, that somehow this imparts to the Maccabean story the status of God-breathed Scripture. That is a non-sequitur. One might as well say that because a certain type of pottery was used in Jesus’ day, therefore it is holy pottery. That’s just not even the beginning of a credible argument.

Indeed, after looking over your article, it jumps out at me that in not one place did Jesus or an Apostle ever say, “the Scripture says,” or “It is written” or such like, but what it was followed, without exception, with a reference to the primary canon, the one you and I would agree on in a heartbeat. There’s got to be a reason for that.

But if you can find an exception to that rule, or otherwise point me to a text where the reference to a deuterocanonical text is clear and unambiguous, I will be glad to consider it.

Again, thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate it.

Peace,

SR


142 posted on 09/03/2014 6:52:18 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

True... It’s not as direct as Jesus reading from Isaiah and closing with this prophesy is filled as you hear it... However, at the end of the day for 1000+ years there was no disputing the OT canon and it was validated by the same authority that validated the NT canon used by all Christians to this day.

Thank you for the charitable exchange.


143 posted on 09/03/2014 8:51:41 PM PDT by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: rwilson99
True... It’s not as direct as Jesus reading from Isaiah and closing with this prophesy is filled as you hear it

It's not that it's not direct.  It's that there's simply no evidence the writer or the speaker being written about was using it or even had it in mind. Jesus in Matthew 22 is simply relating what can be easily derived from the protocanonical books about resurrection. There's not even a hint that some outside text is in reference, not even a modest "it is written." I honestly can't form a basis for belief from something so ephemeral.

However, at the end of the day for 1000+ years there was no disputing the OT canon

I'm sitting here trying to figure out which thousand years those are you're talking about, because the deuterocanonicals were never universally accepted as fully canonical Scripture. Some back and forth tug of war between Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome and others in the ramp up to Carthage. And even Carthage/Hippo didn't definitively settle the matter, because as one of your own has said:

"The Tridentine list or decree was the first infallible and effectually promulgated declaration on the Canon of the Holy Scriptures."

See http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent4.htm

So from Trent till now isn't 1000 years, correct? So I'm confused as to which period you are referencing. There are no witnesses that purport to declare an infallible canon until Trent, as far as I am aware.

However, as you might suspect, as a Protestant I hold only God infallible. Among fallible men, I do think Jerome was in the right on this dispute:

There is also the ever-virtuous book of Jesus son of Sirach, and another which is a pseudepigraph, inscribed Wisdom of Solomon. The first of these I have found also in Hebrew, not titled Ecclesiasticus as among the Latins, but Parables; to which were joined Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs, so that it equaled the resemblance of Solomon not only in the number of books, but also in the type of material. The second book is nowhere among the Hebrews, but even the very style smells of Greek eloquence; and several old writers affirm that it is from the Jew Philo. Therefore, just as the church reads Judith and Tobit and the books of the Maccabees, but does not receive them among the canonical scriptures, so also let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not for confirming the authority of ecclesiastical dogma.

See http://sanctushieronymus.blogspot.com/2007/12/jeromes-prologue-to-books-of-solomon.html

So I think someone has painted for you a rosier picture of the deuterocanonicals than what the actual history of the books reveals. They were not a part of the OT canon as it existed by consensus during the time of Christ, nor were they "infallibly" recieved as Scripture until Trent, as far as I can tell.

It's late, and I'm off to bed.

Peace,

SR




144 posted on 09/03/2014 10:25:44 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: rwilson99; Springfield Reformer
Here’s a long form discussion on the Topic.

I already had found that before i asked you for evidence, as this link, as must all others, utterly fail to evidence that the 7 apocryphal books in the Old Testament were the most cited by Christ in the Gospels, while that the Lord Himself quoted more from Psalms and then Deuteronomy (some count the latter as #1) than from any other portion of the Old Testament is shown. http://blog.biblia.com/2014/04/which-old-testament-book-did-jesus-quote-most/ .

Which is out of a total of at least 24 books and 49 different Old Testament verses (by one count not including the repeats of the same verses throughout the different books)

Even if you can find some actual citations/quotations of apocryphal books by the Lord - and the lists i recall even of all such in all the NT are mainly those of allusions, or one's similar to canonical books, while merely using an text does not necessarily mean it gives authority to the whole book, unlike quoting it as Scripture - this would come far far short of evidencing that the 7 apocryphal books in the Old Testament were the most cited by Christ in the Gospels.

Perhaps you were recalling a statement that said the Lord quoted, and read most often from the Septuagint (LXX) and then someone made the leap that concluded this sanctioned the apocryphal books since the LXX contained them.

However, this presumes that the Septuagint was a uniform body of texts in the time of Christ which contained all the apocryphal books at that time, but for which there is no historical evidence. The earliest existing Greek manuscripts which contain some of them date from the 4th Century and are understood to have been placed therein by Christians .

Furthermore, if quoting from some of the Septuagint means the whole is sanctioned, then since the Psalms of Solomon, which is not part of any scriptural canon, is found in copies of the Septuagint, as is Psalm 151, and 3, and 4 Maccabees (Vaticanus [early 4th century] does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus [early 4th century] includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus [early 5th century] includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and the Psalms of Solomon), then we would be bound to accept them as well.

Edward Earle Ellis writes, “No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

See here on the whole issue of the canon and the . apocrypha

It is also of note that the New Testament i said to quotes the Old over 250 times (see my pop up list here ), with the Scriptures being what the Lord opened the minds of the disciples to. (Lk. 24:44,45) Which is what He refuted the devil by, in referring to every word of God. (Mt. 4:4)

And as Robert Nicole writes,

"It is noteworthy that the New Testament writers and the Lord Jesus himself did not hesitate on occasion to base their whole argumentation upon one single word of Old Testament Scripture (Matthew 2:15; 4:10; 13:35; 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 4:8; 20:42, 43; John 8:17; 10:34; 19:37; Acts 23:5; Romans 4:3, 9, 23; 15:9-12; 1 Corinthians 6:16; Galatians 3:8, 10,13; Hebrews 1:7; 2:12; 3:13; 4:7; 12:26), or even on the grammatical form of one word (Galatians 3:16). http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

145 posted on 09/04/2014 3:56:19 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: dsc

It does us good to enjoy the offspring while they are young; for they grow up SO fast and then they are off on their own.


146 posted on 09/04/2014 3:59:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums

So TRUE!

If we’d known we’d live THIS long; we would have taken better care of ourselves!


147 posted on 09/04/2014 4:00:38 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom

Don’t leave much time to decipher WHY; does it!?


148 posted on 09/04/2014 4:01:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwilson99
However, at the end of the day for 1000+ years there was no disputing the OT canon and it was validated by the same authority that validated the NT canon used by all Christians to this day.

Meaning the church in Rome; right?

It's the 'authority' because it says it is.

149 posted on 09/04/2014 4:05:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwilson99; Springfield Reformer
However, at the end of the day for 1000+ years there was no disputing the OT canon and it was validated by the same authority that validated the NT canon used by all Christians to this day.

THAT is simply another often parroted myth by those who apparently only read RC propaganda. Again, see here .

Even your own the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

At Jerusalem there was a renascence, perhaps a survival, of Jewish ideas, the tendency there being distinctly unfavourable to the deuteros. St. Cyril of that see, while vindicating for the Church the right to fix the Canon, places them among the apocrypha and forbids all books to be read privately which are not read in the churches. In Antioch and Syria the attitude was more favourable. St. Epiphanius shows hesitation about the rank of the deuteros; he esteemed them, but they had not the same place as the Hebrew books in his regard. The historian Eusebius attests the widespread doubts in his time; he classes them as antilegomena, or disputed writings, and, like Athanasius, places them in a class intermediate between the books received by all and the apocrypha. The 59th (or 60th) canon of the provincial Council of Laodicea (the authenticity of which however is contested) gives a catalogue of the Scriptures entirely in accord with the ideas of St. Cyril of Jerusalem. On the other hand, the Oriental versions and Greek manuscripts of the period are more liberal; the extant ones have all the deuterocanonicals and, in some cases, certain apocrypha.

The influence of Origen's and Athanasius's restricted canon naturally spread to the West.... St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books... (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament, eph. mine)

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states as regards the Middle Ages,

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) ^

Moreover, what is the presupposition and conclusion behind your statement of the same authority validating the NT? That the historical stewards of Divine revelation are the infallible authorities on what it is and means?

150 posted on 09/04/2014 4:09:18 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
It is also of note that the New Testament i said to quotes the Old over 250 times (see my pop up list here ), with the Scriptures being what the Lord opened the minds of the disciples to. (Lk. 24:44,45) Which is what He refuted the devil by, in referring to every word of God. (Mt. 4:4)

Here is a list that I put together by searching out the words write, written, read found in the NT.

I do not know if it's 'complete' or not.



NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

151 posted on 09/04/2014 4:12:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Your author suggests that the mere mention of the resurrection as a point of contention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees should be enough to implicate 2 Maccabees. This is so far from a serious argument as to be laughable.

Which is seems is due the desire behind seeing Mary in a piece of toast, but this manner of extrapolation is what is often seen in RC apologetics, such as pray to departed saints .

The rest of your response is quite good also. I think the Scripture Catholic guy has a list with many contrived quotes from the apoc. which i wanted to deal with one day.

152 posted on 09/04/2014 4:18:24 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Elsie
Thanks. To which can be added these links.

Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33; 10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19

153 posted on 09/04/2014 4:35:13 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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