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To: FourtySeven; Errant; editor-surveyor; CynicalBear
OK, Seeing as how I am somewhere between the two camps, I'll take a stab at this...

I’m also surprised that apparently everyone doesn’t know already you guys believe the (New Testament) Scriptures were originally written in Hebrew. It’s a key claim for your theology I’d say.

I would say it is important, but not key. I myself did not come to this position through a necessity of an Hebrew New Testament as much as from an etymological dichotomy - So to me, the meaning is more important than any Hebrew proofs. In fact, it was the defenses of your folks around Matt 23:2-3, using the verse as a hinge-pin toward authority that got my motor running in the first place. And seeking out the etymology puts that use to shame. : ) Indeed, it says the exact opposite.

As luck would have it, that very verse caught Rood's eye too, and the proofs he uses come primarily from the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew and an early (but unique) Greek text, which is where the fervor and acclaim for an Hebrew text come from. But I hasten to reiterate that I came to quite the same conclusion in the KJV, without his proofs.

Consequently in researching, I have come to believe there is indeed much to defend Hebrew originals, and even much to defend an Aramaic interloper... That defense being primarily the existence of Hebrew and Aramaic word puns (an almost exclusively Semitic poetical device) , hidden in the Greek, which come to the fore when translated back into Hebrew and Aramaic respectively. I have seen the presence of these word puns ignored extensively, but never, ever adequately explained. And in reality, the only way they can be explained is by prior provenance in Aramaic and Hebrew versions.

But as I said, my intent is toward the meaning. As an example, the word 'disciple', whose connotation in the Greek is far less rigorous than the 'talmudim' in Hebrew. There can be no doubt that 'talmudim' is meant in the early books of the Brit hadasha, as Yeshua is portrayed as an Hebrew Rabbi, whose followers must in fact BE talmudim. And it is an extremely important point, as those who follow the Rabbi (to include you and I) must also be of that same rigorous sort - The intent must needs be cognizant of the Hebrew connotation, and you and I must be made aware of our duties in our expectations.

And the further I went, the more apparent these things became - Almost everything, every phrase and term, has a richer and more informed Hebrew meaning, which has caused the Book to flower for me like never before. I will NEVER again be able to look at the Book with Greek or Roman eyes.

In addition, no Hebrew manuscripts exist that are older than the oldest Greek texts.

In textual criticism, older is not/ does not have to be/ necessarily better.

[...] but we have had for centuries the claim they were always written in Greek. It’s only been in relatively recent times that people have started to suggest they were in Hebrew.

Not true, at least for Matthew. There is much recorded in your church fathers wrt the existence of an Hebrew original.

how can we understand Scripture, from an etymological standpoint, by studying a Hebrew translation of the Greek? A translation is never inspired, in the strict sense.

That is not really true, for the same reason that Hebrew word puns appear.

375 posted on 03/05/2014 4:42:44 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; FourtySeven; Errant; editor-surveyor
>>and the proofs he uses come primarily from the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew and an early (but unique) Greek text,<<

Satanic Translations: Shem Tov & The Toledoth Yeshu

377 posted on 03/05/2014 4:55:13 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: roamer_1; CynicalBear; redleghunter; Errant
You have to then discount the Greek words that have no Hebrew form. For example, hypocrite:

    A word often used by Jesus, "hypocrite," in describing the Pharisees and Sadducees, comes from the Greek word hypokrites, a compound word with the Greek preposition hypo for "under" and krites, meaning "judgment." This form is wholly lacking in Semitic languages. The word hypokrites basically means, "one who answers" (i.e., one who always has an answer, or excuse), but came to mean over time not only "expounder" or "interpreter," but "orator," "actor," stage actor, or one who spoke from behind a dramatic mask on stage. From this it came to mean "pretender," "dissembler." But this Greek word, so familiar in the denunciations of Christ, has no counterpart in Hebrew or Aramaic.

But, really, what difference does it make?

    What difference does it make, anyway, what language Jesus and His disciples spoke? The answer becomes clear when we realize that there are churches, sects and cults today which make a great issue over the subject of "holy names." These churches will not use ANY name for God or Christ in ANY language except what they call the original "Hebrew" names for God and the Messiah.

    According to these people, it is a SIN to mention on one's lips the word Adonai in Hebrew, translated "Lord" in the Old Testament! According to them, the word "Adonai" is a name for Baal the sun-god, and so "Lord" is a title for Baal, the sun-god! It does not seem to matter to them that the Scriptures themselves use this very word repeatedly in reference to the True God of Israel! Similarly, they condemn the use of the Hebrew name El, Elohim, Eloah, and all its derivatives as being PAGAN terms, used of the pagan gods of antiquity. They condemn the use of such words, including any and all translations from them, such as "God," "Most High God," etc. Any titles used for pagan gods they forbid to be used of the True God! Yet the Scriptures themselves repeatedly refer to the true God as El, Elohim, Eloah, etc., in the Old Testament, which translates into English as "God" (Gen.1:1, etc.).

    Of course, the fact that God preserved the entirely of the New Testament in the Greek language seems to give these people "fits." They claim Greek is another pagan language, and that such terms as Iesous translated "Jesus," and Theos translated "God" are also pagan names and must not be used. They claim that a vast, overriding "conspiracy" in the first century destroyed all the "missing" Hebrew original documents, and that the New Testament we have today is essentially a forgery -- at least where the names of God are involved!

    Proof or evidence of this conspiracy? There is none. Does God Almighty have the power to preserve His name in whatever language He chooses? Of course He does! And it is patently obvious that He choose to preserve the New Testament Scriptures in Greek -- not Hebrew! The fact that Jesus and the apostles all spoke Greek is another nail in the coffin of these "language-worshippers" and conspiracy addicts.

    We need not worry about ancient conspiracies to destroy the word, or "name" of God. As Christ said, "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17); "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

    Peter wrote that the word of God "liveth and abideth for ever" (I Pet.1:23). The word of God, which He inspired to be preserved, is in all essential and crucial respects, inspired and correctly preserved, to all generations. As Paul wrote to Timothy, "ALL SCRIPTURE" -- and that includes the NAMES AND TITLES USED FOR GOD, in both the Old and New Testaments -- "IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD [Greek, "God-breathed"], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (II Tim.3:16).

    Wouldn't it seem awfully strange that if God only intended all mankind to use only the Hebrew names of God and the Messiah, that He Himself divided all mankind into many language groups at the tower of Babel? Wouldn't it also seem strange that this same God, who created mankind, and later gave him different languages (Gen.11), required that in order to receive salvation one would have to know, and pronounce "correctly," the Hebrew name of God and Christ -- and that ONLY THE HEBREW PRONUNCIATION WOULD SAVE ANYBODY?

    What kind of God would that be? Generations of man have come and gone, and even the Jews say today that they have forgotten exactly how to pronounce the YHVH or Tetragrammaton of the Old Testament name of God! "Jehovah" is obviously in error, yet many use that name today. "Yahweh" is the more recently "scholarly" pronunciation suggested by many; yet historical evidence indicates that is just an "approximation" of the divine name, and "Yahveh" would be closer to the truth.

    Others claim "Yahuveh" is more accurate. And on and on the argument goes -- where it will stop, nobody knows! Some claim "Christ" is a pagan (Greek) term, and that "Jesus" comes from the Greek god "Zeus." Both claims are patently false. "Christ" is merely the English form of the Greek word Christos, which merely means "Anointed" (just as the Hebrew word Moshiach literally means "Messiah"). The name "Jesus" comes from the Greek Iesous, and means "Saviour," just as does the Hebrew original Yeshua.

    The important thing in God's sight is not whether we pronounce the syllables and consonants of His name in some precise manner directed by heaven. But rather, whether we love Him with all our heart, mind and soul, and love our neighbor as ourselves. As Jesus Christ said: "For this is the (whole) law and the prophets." Why the New Testament was Written in Greek, Not Hebrew


466 posted on 03/05/2014 10:45:37 PM PST by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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