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To: 4Zoltan
That’s interesting. I wonder why they titled Chapter 3 - “Loss of Nationality” subtitled “Loss of Nationality by Native-born or Naturalized Citizens”?

You understand it's possible for laws to make BOTH negative and positive declarations of criteria that would affection naturalization or loss of nationality?? This shouldn't too hard to comprehend.

And why did they begin Chapter 3 with:
“SEC. 349. (a) From and after the effective date of this Act a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by - “
And they go on to list 10 ways that a citizen of the US can lose their citizenship (with adoption not being one of the ten).

Yes, and I hope you understand the law was amended in 1986. We have to look at the law that was in effect at the time Obama would have been adopted, not what it was in 1986 or later. The Cornell law site gives annotations regarding how that part of the law has been amended. Prior to 1986, it contained language to explain how citizenship can NOT be lost:

nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday

You'll see this says nationality shall NOT be lost as the result of the naturalization of the parents. What this doesn't cover is when the parent is already a foreign national, such as Lolo Soetoro. Under adoption law, the acquisition of citizenship is considered birth citizenship and not naturalization, so if Obama was adopted, he wasn't being naturalized by a parent or guardian; he was automatically becoming a citizen through adoption and Indonesian law.

Are you saying Indonesian laws trumped US laws with regards to US citizenship?

No, I'm saying the U.S respects the laws of other nations and follows international law where applicable. Under the State Department website on intercountry adoption, it only says that children retain U.S. citizenship when adopted to Hague Convention countries. Indonesia has not been party to this convention. Also, note that this comment also defers to the laws of other countries.

A child being adopted from the United States to another Convention country retains his/her U.S. citizenship. He or she may also acquire the citizenship of the prospective adoptive parents depending on the citizenship status of the parents and the laws of the other Convention country.

And it's worth noting that these ideas about loss of nationality are relatively new. In Wong Kim Ark, the Supreme Court acknowledged that parents COULD renounce the citizenship of their child:

neither he nor his parents acting for him ever renounced his allegiance to the United States ...

What we don't know is what citizenship Obama claimed as a young adult, up till the time he was required to choose U.S. citizenship or not. And again, we have no legal proof he was ever a U.S. citizen prior to becoming an Indonesian citizen, which means these laws on loss of nationality simply don't apply. Obama had to naturalize. t too hard to comprehend.

285 posted on 01/28/2013 10:21:12 PM PST by edge919
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To: edge919

“Yes, and I hope you understand the law was amended in 1986. We have to look at the law that was in effect at the time Obama would have been adopted, not what it was in 1986 or later.”

I’m citing the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act also known as the McCarron-Walters Act. It was amended by the 1965 Act to Amend the Immigration and Nationality also known as the Hart-Celler Act.

As for the rest not under Perkins v Elg 307 U.S. 325 (1939)

“As municipal law determines how citizenship may be acquired, it follows that persons may have a dual nationality. [Footnote 1] And the mere fact that the plaintiff may have acquired Swedish citizenship by virtue of the operation of Swedish law on the resumption of that citizenship by her parents does not compel the conclusion that she has lost her own citizenship acquired under our law. As at birth she became a citizen of the United States, that citizenship must be deemed to continue unless she has been deprived of it through the operation of a treaty or congressional enactment or by her voluntary action in conformity with applicable legal principles.”

Can you cite any treaty/US law that says a child loses his citizenship by adoption by a foreign national?

“Obama had to naturalize”

Not Us Law at the time of his move to Indonesia.


287 posted on 01/28/2013 11:22:55 PM PST by 4Zoltan
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