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To: Cronos; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; Springfield Reformer; ..


Sorry, your post's utter ignorance about Islam is incredible...your posts are error bound always

And Cronos must resort to personalize slander in his knee-jerk reaction against anything that may impugn upon Rome in the slightest? In my extensive correspondence with you, far from my posts even coming close to being characteristically error-bound, it is your many mischaracterizations and sophistry that must be corrected. .

There IS a "New Covenant" in Islam and those are the Surahs

There IS? Then Cronos can all a lot of scholars ignorant as well. Sura or Surah, refers to a division of the Qur'an, and is derived from the Pahlavi word suri meaning red color. Go find your "Surah" sect among the multitude of Islamic schools and branches of Islam. If such does exist, it is so negligible as to make your argument look even more desperate. Perhaps you meant Sunni.

The Sunni, Shi'a, Ja'fari, Ismaili, Zaidi, Sufis, Ahmadiyya, Ibadi, Ijtihad, Kharijites, Salafi, Ibadism, Wahabi, Quranist, Khariji, Mu'tazila, Batini, qadiani, Alevi, Alawi,Drush, Hanafi, Shafi, Tableegi, Akhbari, Yazidi, Druze, Bábí, Bahá'í, Berghouata, Naqshbandi, Bektashi, Chishti, Ha-Mim, Qadiri, Zaidiyyah, Oveyssi, Suhrawardiyya ,Hanafi Shafi`i, Maliki, Salafi, Ash'ari, Murji'ah, Mu'tazili, Athari, Zahiri, Twelver, Usuli, Akhbari, Shaykhism, Ismailism, Nizari, Mustaali, Dawoodi Bohra, Sulaymani, Alavi Bohra, Hebtiahs, Atba-i-Malak, Druze, Zaidiyyah, Alawi, Alevi, Sufism, Qadiri, Bektashi, Chishti, Oveyssi, Suhrawardiyya, Ahmadiyya, Kharijite, Ibadi, Ahl-e Haqq, Mahdavism etc

As for a New Covenant, your claim is wrong, as what you describe is not such, nor does it correlate to the sense (violence) in which i said, There is no "New Covenant" in Islam .. and if anything resembled that it was in Muhammad's preMedinic days when he was a minority in Mecca (where he once spoke against religious oppression). Even though most Muslims affirm the Injil, they reject this and other New Covenant distinctions therein.

They also hold to sola scriptura (at least the Sunnah who comprise 80% of Moslems)

Usually referred to as Sunni Islam (in English known as Sunni Muslims, Sunnis, Sunnites) as "Sunni" comes from the term Sunnah (Arabic: سنة‎), which refers to the sayings and actions of the prophet Muhammad as recorded in Hadiths. “The Hadith are found in several collections, and Sunnis view some of these collections to be more holy and authentic than others, especially the Bukhari collection of hadith.” (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sunni.html) As apparently in the context of biographical records of Muhammad sunnah often stands as synonymous with hadith, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnah#Sunnah_and_hadith) it would be better to refer to them as Sunni. The term Hadeeth has become a synonym for the term Sunnah, though there is some difference in their meanings. Sunnah, as a technical term in the Science of Hadeeth, refers to whatever statements, acts, approvals, physical or character descriptions that are attributable to the Prophet (pbuh) along with his biography before or after the beginning of his prophet hood. Hadith on the other hand are the recordings of Sunnah. (http://scanislam.com/articles/what-are-hadeeth-and-sunnah)

As for Sunnis holding to sola Scriptura and trying to draw a parallel between Islam and Evangelicals via sola Scriptura, that is an overreach (especially with SS as often described by Catholics). We both do eat food, but the Hadith are regarded by traditional Islamic schools of jurisprudence as important tools for understanding the Quran and in matters of jurisprudence, although the two largest denominations of Islam, Shiʻa and Sunni, rely upon different sets of hadith collections.

“There are certain Hadith considered by most Sunnis to be trustworthy and these are commonly known as the Authentic Six. Only two of them are actually labeled as authentic (sahih), and they are Bukhari and Muslim. These collections are second only to the Qur'an in authority. The others are from Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah. In strength, Malik's Muwatta' is placed just below the two Sahihs, but is not generally included among the six.”

“In Shi'ite Islam (approx 10-20% of the world's Muslim population) they have their own collections and are more particular in regards to the Hadith narrations they will accept. If a narrator was not a member of the Ahl al-Bayt (Muhammad's household) or one of their supporters, then the narration is typically rejected. For example, they reject narrations from Abu Huraira. Al-Kafi is the most reliable Shi'ite hadith.” (http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Hadith_%28definition%29)

"The two fundamental sources of Islam are the Qur'an (the word of God) and the Sunnah (the example) of the Prophet..." “Here, we are concerned with Sunnah in the sense of the recorded sayings (Hadiths) of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). In this sense, Hadith is considered to be second to the Qur'an. It is impossible to understand the Qur'an without reference to the Hadith; and it is impossible to explain a hadith without relating it to the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms.. (Professor Shahul Hameed, a consultant for IslamOnline.net, previously the Head of the Department of English, Farook College, Calicut University; http://www.onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-studies/441273.html cf. http://scanislam.com/articles/importance-of-sunnah-hadiths)

Thus if you are desperate for a parallel, then it is with Catholics, as most of Islam holds to an oral tradition as well as to their scripture, if not fully in the same way as Catholics. And yet Rome has also affirmed, if not consistently, that “the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” (LUMEN GENTIUM, 16; http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)

He likely received some beliefs from illiterate Catholic traders. How else could he have the idea that the Trinity was composed of God, Jesus and Mary?

Finally, "illiterate Catholic traders"? your posts are error bound always -- the region of Mecca was nearly conquered by Ethiopians and the regions to the south were Jewish kingdoms like the Himyarite kingdom -- while our Ethiopian brethren are part of the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, they are and were not "Catholic" in the sense you want to make of Roman Catholic and they were not traders

You are misrepresenting what i said by restricting “Catholic” to Roman Catholic, which i carefully did not use, while i also said “likely,” and asserting that none of these were traders is unlikely, and disallowing that Muhammad had no interaction with illiterate, poorly catechized Catholic traders is extremely unlikely and another overreach on your part. If it is true that in 615 a group of Muslims were counseled by Muhammad to escape persecution in Mecca and travel to Ethiopia via modern day Eritrea, then there would have been travel between the two then, while Muhammad had contact with other Catholics as well, and my hypothesis does not depend on them being traders. However, Muhammad's aberrations might also be blamed in part (besides his demonic visions) on the influence of the Arian heretic Bahira whom Muhammad is said to have met while traveling as part of a caravan (and in which he certainly could have interacted with Catholic traders).


13 posted on 01/14/2013 7:49:36 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
There's a strong thesis that's been around for a couple of centuries that Mohammad wasn't the man the writers of the Koran in Damascus made him out to be ~ possibly a minor reformer out to get the snake god out of the kabbah or something.

The idea is simple ~ the Arabs who found themselves owning ancient cities filled with scholars of all sorts decided to make themselves look to be at least their equal by inventing Islam.

That's why the Koran appears in Arabic (?) a full 150 years before the next literary work in Arabic ~ BTW, the Koran appeared mostly in Aramaic ~ see the work on pre-dot Arabic, and the earliest Korans. That lends credence to the idea the Arabs pieced it together out of materials they encountered in Damascus, not Mecca.

The claims of Mohammad meeting Ethiopian Christians are simply to throw doubters off the track regarding the true origins of the Christian writings incorporated into the body of the Koran.

15 posted on 01/14/2013 8:06:03 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: daniel1212

How could Mohammad have met any Christians other than Catholics since the Catholics claim that there have been no other Christians since Christ? They claim that until after the Reformation there were no others who would have considered themselves Christian.


21 posted on 01/14/2013 10:44:27 AM PST by CynicalBear
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