Posted on 06/24/2012 5:54:41 PM PDT by Borges
Some interesting choices with a Number 2 that I never heard of.
(Excerpt) Read more at mandatory.com ...
Troll much?
Yup.. I was going to mention that.. but I didn’t want to ruffle any ‘decent’ FReepers feathers.. the troll, I could care less about ;)
It means that we have another libtard n00b troll agitator to deal with :p
The death rate for Confederate prisoners held at both Camp Douglas and Elmira Prison was just as high as Andersonville, and had the added quality of being avoidable. This is an evil ignored by neo-yankee fanatics, not to be confused with people who are simply proud of their Union Army ancestors. The Union had the resources to avoid the deaths and chose not to, unlike the conditions that existed in the South where shortages of food and medicine were extreme.
The South had requested prisoner exchanges that would have returned the Andersonville prisoners to the North, a policy that had been in effect for most of the war, but the Lincoln administration refused the offer.
“The Union Army ordered the destruction of property not civilian lives; “
Yes, and the unfortunate civilian deaths due to starvation and exposure as a result was something that no one could foresee. I also seem to recall Sherman ordering the execution of civilians in order to suppress guerrillas taking shots at his troops.
“The death rate for Confederate prisoners held at both Camp Douglas and Elmira Prison was just as high as Andersonville”
4,200 prisoners died at Camp Douglas and 2,963 died at Elmira. 12,912 died at Andersonville.
“and had the added quality of being avoidable.”
Andersonville was designed to hold 10,000 prisoners. The rebels stuffed it with 32,000. It was avoidable.
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/national_cemeteries/Illinois/Confederate_Mound_Oak_Woods_Cemetery.html
http://www.civilwarhome.com/elmira.htm
http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/11andersonville/11facts1.htm
No state had the right to secede from the union.
Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Roger B. Taney
“The South contends that a state has a constitutional right to secede from the Union formed with her sister states. In this I submit the South errs. No power or right is constitutional but what can be exercised in a form or mode provided in the constitution for its exercise. Secession is therefore not constitutional, but revolutionary; and is only morally competent, like war, upon failure of justice.”
In other words, there is no way for the concept of unilateral secession to be exercised under the US Constitution, for no mode or form of such is provided in that document. Chief Justice Taney wrote the above in a memorandum, 26 January through 1 February 1861.
“Chief Justice Taney wrote the above in a memorandum, 26 January through 1 February 1861.”
Thomas Jefferson himself wrote:
“that in cases of an abuse of the delegated powers, the members of the general government, being chosen by the people, a change by the people would be the constitutional remedy; but, where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that
“every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non fœderis) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them”
: that nevertheless, this commonwealth, from motives of regard and respect for its co-States, has wished to communicate with them on the subject: that with them alone it is proper to communicate, they alone being parties to the compact, and solely authorized to judge in the last resort of the powers exercised under it”
For us south’ners, as you’ve so called us, this started in ‘32.
"4,200 prisoners died at Camp Douglas and 2,963 died at Elmira. 12,912 died at Andersonville." - moonshot925
Hey moonshot925... Work on your reading comprehension. There is a difference between "number of deaths" and "death rate". As a percentage of the total population of the camp, the death rate of Confederates at Douglas was higher than that of Union soldiers at Andersonville. From that, it can be determined that conditions for prisoners were much worse at Douglas than at Andersonville.
If one wants to go beyond Camp Douglas, the Elmira (NY) Prison had an even higher mortality rate for Confederates than did Douglas.
The thing about numbers is that they don't lie. You can try to bend them to your favor all you wish, but the numbers won't lie. If conditions at a POW camp are to be based upon mortality rates, then Confederate soldiers in Union POW camps were trated much worse than were Union soldiers in Confederate POW camps.
tratedm = treated
“When any one state in the American Union refuses obedience to the Confederation by which they have bound themselves, the rest have a natural right to compel them to obedience.” - Thomas Jefferson, 24 January 1786
IF secession was legal, and IF there was no provision against it in the Constitution, then WHY did none of the seceding Southern states ever try a legal means of separation?
Why did none of the seceding states appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States to petition their legal right under the constitution to peacefully separate from the United States?
Why did none of the duly elected representatives of the seceding Southern states introduce legislation to peacefully separate from the United States in the US Congress?
Why did none of the duly elected representatives of the seceding Southern states call for a national refferendum for the nation to vote on the South’s desire to peacefully separate from the United States?
“As a percentage of the total population of the camp, the death rate of Confederates at Douglas was higher than that of Union soldiers at Andersonville.”
45,000 prisoners were received at Andersonville and 12,913 died. That is a 29% death rate.
26,000 prisoners were received at Camp Douglas and 4,454 died. That is a 17% death rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Douglas_(Chicago)#Deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_National_Historic_Site
“IF secession was legal, and IF there was no provision against it in the Constitution, then WHY did none of the seceding Southern states ever try a legal means of separation?”
They did. The state legislatures voted on secession and if the legislature succeeded then the state filed an ordinance of secession. Same way they did so when leaving Great Britain. Same process, same result, at least for Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia.
If the individual states had a right to leave Great Britain, then why did they not have that same right to leave the United States? I don’t see how you can argue that the establishment of the United States was legal, but the establishment of the Confederacy was not.
“Why did none of the seceding states appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States to petition their legal right under the constitution to peacefully separate from the United States?”
1, the Supreme court would decide that was rightfully a matter for each individual state legislature, not the supreme court.
2, it wasn’t necessary for them to do so.
“Why did none of the duly elected representatives of the seceding Southern states introduce legislation to peacefully separate from the United States in the US Congress?”
Again, because the duly elected state representatives are the ones who get to make this decision. The congressional representatives are bound to respect the decisions of their individual state.
“Why did none of the duly elected representatives of the seceding Southern states call for a national refferendum for the nation to vote on the South’s desire to peacefully separate from the United States?”
Again, because such is not something that is decided by national referendum, instead it is decided, by the state legislature.
“When any one state in the American Union refuses obedience to the Confederation by which they have bound themselves, the rest have a natural right to compel them to obedience.” - Thomas Jefferson, 24 January 1786
The same confederation that permits them to leave freely. The confederation does not compel them to stay in peacetime if they do not wish to stay. They may leave. Lincoln disputed this, and eventually Lincoln won, but that does not change the fact that prior - they possessed this right and exercised it.
Robert C. Doyle's The Enemy in our Hands
James M. Gillispie's Andersonvilles of the North: The Myths and Realities of Northern Treatment of Civil War Confederate Prisoners
I. N. Haynie's A history of Camp Douglas, A Prisoner of War Camp at Chicago 1861-1865
Roger Peckenpaugh's Captives in Grey, The Civil War Prisons of the Union
or Lonnie R. Spear's Portals to Hell, Military Prisons of the Civil War
These folks have to answer for the information they publish and thus strive for accuracy. Contributors to Wiki do not.
Oh, and your "4,454" number? Interesting that the monument says:
"TO THE MEMORY OF THE SIX THOUSAND SOUTHERN SOLDIERS HERE BURIED . . . WHO DIED IN CAMP DOUGLAS PRISON . . . 1862-5"
Of course this doesn't take into account the bodies that went into the lake or the "too numerous to count" bodies that were sold to the medical schools across the northwest...
Real knowledge is a funny thing... You gain it at the same rate as the amount of work you put in to it. Do more than using a search engine and then hitting Wiki if you want accurate information.
At's as gooder West Tenni-see word as i kin do.
Chief Justice Taney established in February 1861 that unilateral succession is illegal.
Chief Justice Marshall established in the 1819 case McCullock v. Maryland that a state gave up its sovereignty to act unilaterally once it entered the Union:
“[t]he assent of the States in their sovereign capacity is implied in calling a convention, and thus submitting that instrument to the people. But the people were at perfect liberty to accept or reject it, and their act was final. It required not the affirmance, and could not be negatived, by the State Governments. The Constitution, when thus adopted, was of complete obligation, and bound the State sovereignties.”
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