Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article


1 posted on 05/12/2012 10:44:33 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


To: SeekAndFind
LOL.

It sounds like it was an "investment" in a derivative of derivatives. Nest that notion a few more times and we're really getting somewhere.

2 posted on 05/12/2012 10:58:37 AM PDT by Paladin2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

In the last 20 years Wall Street has moved away from an investment-led model, to a gambling-led model.


3 posted on 05/12/2012 10:58:37 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind
From what I've read, JP Morgan is still going to make $4 billion for the quarter.

But if Conservatives want to play along with Barney Frank, perhaps these billion dollar profits can be turned into trillions of dollar losses.

6 posted on 05/12/2012 11:14:05 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind
Policy needs to be: if a bank is judged "two big to fail", then it is too big to be allowed to exist. Bank regulators would then order the bank to unwind and shed any derivative and options holdings, and then be ordered to split into multiple independent pieces.

And a trader who blows more than a million dollars gets barred from ever working for a financial institution again, either directly or indirectly.

10 posted on 05/12/2012 11:31:05 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

“This is just a preview of coming attractions.”

One simple observation that adds a lot of heft to this is that a few billion here or there to JP Morgan would NOT have pushed them to a public mea culpa.


12 posted on 05/12/2012 11:41:17 AM PDT by TalBlack ( Evil doesn't have a day job.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

A good way to describe the derivatives market is the “elementary schoolyard” model.

During morning recess, the schoolboys took to betting their lunch money while pitching pennies. Some would win, and some would lose, but the payoffs were immediate.

Then one schoolboy, tired of losing his lunch money over and over again, tries the “double or nothing” gamut. He bets today’s lunch money, and *tomorrow’s* lunch money. And he wins the bet. So the other boys double down again, betting 4x lunch money. And he redoubles that to 8x lunch money.

Being in elementary school, they are soon betting tens and hundreds of thousands, then millions and billions and trillions of dollars (eventually they get to ‘infinity dollars’ and ‘infinity +1’ dollars, which turns it into a farce). Of course, none of them have that money, because their bets are based on previous bets only.

And this is a good description of the derivatives markets, excepting the ‘infinity’ plus bets (as well as laughing when they hit the sextillion dollars bets).

Because, in the final analysis, their derivative gambles are so utterly disconnected from reality that they are just dares and double dares. Yet, the zinger is, they actually expect *somebody* to make their bets “good”.

So at some point they try to ‘backtrack’ their money to reconnect it with real things of value. In the schoolyard this might amount to billion dollar marbles, but that breaks down quickly because marbles just can’t be worth that much.

The only real solution is for the ‘teacher’, in this case governments, to intervene and say that all such bets are null and void. Of course this will result in some derivatives trader bitterly throwing a tantrum and complaining that it is “not fair, because he owes me a billion, trillion, quadrillion dollars, and I want *my* money!!!”

“Tough”, the teacher has to say.


13 posted on 05/12/2012 11:51:48 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind
the "too big to fail" banks have exposure to derivatives that is absolutely mind blowing.

What's the net exposure?

16 posted on 05/12/2012 12:05:01 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

Money laundering


21 posted on 05/12/2012 1:13:56 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

In my simple mind and humble opinion:

The derivatives market should collapse.

We will all suffer though for the sins and profit of the few.

Derivatives produce nothing. The market has all become about gambling and not about value So much business has become about smoke and mirrors and much much less about adding value through manufacturing or invention or technology applications.

When a 38 year old can amass 3.8 billion after leaving a failed Enron by simply trading paper and taking a risk doing that... nothing is gained by anyone but him. Sure, he may have made people money along the way. I’ll bet though that most of the time he was on both sides of the trade and profited either way.

NO VALUE WAS PRODUCED. This is the business equivalent of spilling your seed on the ground.


22 posted on 05/12/2012 1:39:46 PM PDT by Sequoyah101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind

Many of those derivatives offset each other. I agree the notational value is too large but absolute exposure is far lower.
Another point in the article about the SEC (and FINRA,unmentioned) sleeping. They were no doubt. Without question. Now they have the sharp knives out and will attempt to blow up the smallest infraction. They are measuring success there now by fines and jail terms and not a lack of scandal.


24 posted on 05/12/2012 1:44:09 PM PDT by wiggen (The teacher card. When the racism card just won't work.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind
You have to dissect the multi-trillion dollar figures thrown around in order to panic the ill-informed. 80% of this total exposure is in the form of plain vanilla Interest Rate Swaps.

In a vanilla Interest Rate Swap, the 2 parties involved in a transaction are only exchanging fixed interest payments for floating interest payments on an agreed-upon notional. For example: 2 parties may engage in a Swap transaction on a $100million notional amount. They are not exchanging the entire $100million. They are only exchanging interest payments on that $100 million on a monthly, quarterly, semi-annual or annual basis (whatever they agree to), so the true exposure is nowhere near the $100 million notional amount of the swap.

Additionally; If JPM does one side of a swap with Bank "A" and the other side of a swap with Bank "B", with both swaps having a notional amount of $100 million each, the net exposure is essentially "0" since the swaps offset one another. However; these transactions will be reported in the media as "$200 million in outstanding derivatives exposure".

Let's not become like our enemies on the left. They would love nothing more than to use this mark-to-market, paper loss (not a realized loss) as an excuse to let the government run wild and take control of the entire banking industry "for our own good".

Besides - is it the job of the government to ensure that investment banks don't incur trading losses? As long as the banks don't come back looking for a bailout after such a loss, this is simply a consequence of being in a business were risk is taken.

The outrage at banks being bailed out should be directed towards the government who authorizes the bailouts. You make a big bet and it goes against you? Eat the loss.

30 posted on 05/12/2012 4:59:34 PM PDT by American Infidel (Instead of vilifying success, try to emulate it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: SeekAndFind; blam; The Duke; HiTech RedNeck; riverrunner; Quix; Alamo-Girl; M. Espinola; ...
This so-called $ 2 Billion" loss is really "$ 9 Billion" according to the company's own accountant. But most likely the loss will soon exceed $ 12 - $ 15 Billion in reality. But derivatives losses are nebulous beasts and these losses might easily top out nearer to $ 20 Billion.

But that figure is not as important as this breaking report:

JPMorgan Chase Manipulation Scandal Raises Specter Of Enron !

Isn't Jamie D Mr. 0's favorite banker ___ ?

LOL !

This is the new Washington DC. Corruption corruption corruption and still no prosecutions. Just bonuses. More $$$$$$$ Millions in payoffs for profiteering criminals . . . .

42 posted on 07/04/2012 8:52:02 AM PDT by ex-Texan ((Ecclesiastes 5:10 - 20))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson