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To: Seizethecarp; edge919

NBC = NBS. That is the argument made in the first half of the WKA decision, and it lead inevitably to the idea that WKA & possibly Obama are natural born citizens.

And in truth, natural born subject WAS an extremely well known term describing citizenship in the colonies, and was used interchangeably with NBC for years after the Constitution.

Given that the Founders used the term NBS regularly to describe themselves, is it really likely they pulled the term NBC from a translation of Vattel made in 1797? THAT is the challenge the birthers have refused to discuss.

However, there is a small chance that WKA could be thrown out - IF you can convince the court that the legal history of NBS in common law could not have anticipated a time when people could enter a country for a couple of days, have a kid, and depart. Tourism just wasn’t a part of 15th & 16th century thinking.

And WKA does assume the parents are here legally, and discusses domicile - a factor usually ignored.

There is an argument that could be made that Obama Sr was not domiciled here, and that the English common law that defined NBS did not anticipate an African coming to the US to study and then leave. It could be argued that Obama Sr was more like an ambassador, in terms of 15th century thinking, than a common citizen. If so, then UNDER WKA, Obama Jr would NOT be a natural born citizen, because his father was here at the request of a foreign government.

THAT argument, if given weight, would toss Ankeny out.

Minor does not and has never defined NBC exclusively, and no court will EVER say otherwise. If you don’t want to lose forever, then you need to take WKA and the undoubted meaning of natural born subject/citizen into account, and give the court a reason to say Obama Jr doesn’t qualify.

Until then, Obama won’t even need to show up to kick your asses.


46 posted on 02/05/2012 9:47:25 AM PST by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: Mr Rogers
NBC = NBS. That is the argument made in the first half of the WKA decision, and it lead inevitably to the idea that WKA & possibly Obama are natural born citizens.

This is false. You're stretching dicta and playing connect the dots for something that was NEVER said in WKA. What they really said was NBC = born in the country to citizen parents and that NBS + permanent residence and domicil = 14th amendment "citizenship by birth." Rogers, if you C&P the entire WKA decision, it will prove my point. Try it.

Given that the Founders used the term NBS regularly to describe themselves, is it really likely they pulled the term NBC from a translation of Vattel made in 1797? THAT is the challenge the birthers have refused to discuss.

No, actually James Madison noted that natural-born citizenship to the state superceded British subjectship ... the latter was a secondary allegiance that was dissolved when the state declared its independence from Britain. He also noted that citizenship was a birthright through the parents. The founders could NOT be U.S. citizens if they strictly adhered to English common law because it required perpetual allegiance. The 1797 translation of Vattel follows the understanding of how "naturel" was translated in 1781, which = natural-born.

49 posted on 02/05/2012 9:57:39 AM PST by edge919
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