Posted on 01/06/2012 11:47:17 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Around you say? How ‘bout UNDER? A few months ago I read about a rather elaborate tunnel, complete with electric cars and lighting, and 32 tons of pot. How many illegals do you suppose got through?
Well, all these ideas are interesting and, as they say, if we can go to the moon, surely we can secure a border even if it is 1500 miles of hell.
But the main problem is not with Texas or Rick Perry. This has to be handled by a no holds barred program by the federal government.
The current feds have not only ignored the border problem but they have tried to sabotage every plan put forth by states to help with the illegal problem.
I just hope that if Perry doesn’t make it, that Rick Santorum is tougher and more committed than he looks to be and that Gingrich will not fly off into some horse latitude and not deal with it.
Oh, yeah, the Tunnel!
Don’t forget we are dealing with both drug lords and muslim interlopers here and both groups have the money to do what’s necssary to get across.
It’s not as simple as ‘build a fence.’
That fence I referred to in Arizona was a ‘virtual fence.’
They spent mega millions on it only to find out it didn’t work. they could have found that out before they spent the money but you know the feds.
Israel doesn’t have 2,000 miles of border to secure, nor a Rio Grande marking the boundary between them and their hostile neighbors. It’s been a few months since I checked this out, but I think there are some places where Israel doesn’t have a fence due to natural barriers. BICBW
I’ll speak in generalities as I’m not an engineer (but I slept at a Holiday Inn once ;)
First, I’ll condense and say that this is of course a multi billion dollar project that we once had the Feds behind and monies allocated toward, so far smarter people than I with degrees and elected positions already determined that it is indeed possible and feasible.
As far as canals go, I’ll refer to the Mohave/SanDiego pipeline. The fence, as envisioned basically requires a lot of chainlink, razor wire and concrete. It requires earth moving, digging, rerouting and all the things that spring to mind in any large scale construction project.
Flood plains and environmental:
Lets say that you built the fence across the flood plain. Just brute forced it in. Point A to B.
It’s a fence. If the area floods, what’s the problem? I don’t see it. The water goes down and we do maintenance/repair and cleanup. Floods do not happen so often and at such magnitude that 1000 miles of fence are swept away.
And then again, therehere is nothing to say that any fence has to be 100% the same from gulf to Pacific. Construdtion projects over bodies of water like Lake Pochatrain Causeway (SP?) can be adapted to fence technology to deal with potentially ‘wet’ scenarios. Again, we have the technology to go to the moon and live for decades in Space...why should building a mere fence be beyond our ability as humans?
Canals are nothing more than a ditch. We diverted the Colorado River through several Hundred feet of Granite and I STRONGLY recommend people watch the History Channel’s show on constructing China’s 3 Gorges dam. THAT is water diversion.
Farming: Any water required can simply be piped via pump (which it is NOW) from the river through a fence into any additional Canals. Again. We do it now. Build more of what we already have/do now where needed.
Now for the PRICE of it all.
First, treaties etc with Mexico matter not a whit. This is a NatSec issue. As such, Greenie concerns can pound salt. Plants and animals are not superior or of more importance than American safety. Bottom line. Any one that says they are is a Communist not an American.
This gets paid for by ending foreign Aid to Mexico and other places around the globe that hate us.
It also gets paid for by the costs saved from issues I brought up in this prior discussion with another Freeper, John Valentine the other night...
_
As Prince once said, “Dig if you will, a picture...”
There is no question that this is a multi-billion dollar endeavor. Now consider the costs ANNUALLY of illegals on America across all 50 (or 57, depending) states
The medical costs that have put hospitals out of business (like 14-18 so far I think) that run into the 9 figures alone.
The education costs.
The social services costs
The unemployment of American citizens cost
the crime due to drugs costs...court/ jail, investigations etc.
One would have to really study the actual cost to America, but just the surface, one year would equate to the cost of the fence alone.
Then compare what Perry’s or any other similar plan would cost (and grow government agencies to boot for manpower on the ground and administrative)
Then there’s the cancellation of Foreign aid to Mexico which is not insignificant.
Then the costs we incur over immigration suits and laws rules and regs by the Democrats who sue and obstruct at the drop of the proverbial hat. AZ alone is dealing with that as you know. All the lawyers/ etc...and that’s separate from regular crime costs above.
OK, right there alone, one year and the fence is built and paid for without diving into minutia which would reveal massively more savings like an American doing a job over the table pays tax, an illegal under the table does not...and the wage is no longer being artificially depressed. Things like that.
Year 2 to whenever is just BP cost and maintenance, resulting in a multi billion savings to America and citizens.
Of course, this is the tip of the iceberg in discussing this all, but it covers a lot of it.
Crime is down.
BP are fewer and in FAR less danger of death.
Employment rises
Medical costs stabilize
And MOST IMPORTANTLY, the dems lose their illegal fueled power base and CANNOT play games with BP over “environmental concerns” and “rights” of illegals.
The laws are then rammed through to force voter ID, employers fined to oblivion for hiring ANY illegals (after a EVerify program is put in place nationally) and renters are forbidden by law from renting to illegals of ANY country.
Now, As this is a national security matter and provably so, and we have a billion times the technology we need to do it, the only thing to stop it is a Republican president and congress willing to defy the Democrats and make it happen.
Test area/run. My only opposition is that it’s been done in SoCal SanDiego already. The stats are there. It dropped illegals by orders of magnitude. They just need to deal with the tunnels via sensors/ground penetrating radar sweeps/patrols.
But another one is fine in the above manner with canals/crossings etc. It can’t fail and be that much less to do later when done fully. Also may spur mexico to deal with their issues.
To address Quicksilver:
In the patrolls that would still occur, do an ocasional run with Ground penetrating Radar. Tunnel problem solved.
And the MILLIONS of illegals and drugs crossing now cannot all fit into the couple tunnels we ‘could’ miss...net win = us.
Also, look up what it takes to tunnel under a river sometime. Drug gangs with shovels don’t cut it.
As my grandmother always told me, locks only keep honest people out. The same can be said for fences.
Bear in mind, I don’t mean any of this just applies to RP. I don’t personally ‘hate’ the man, just “strongly” disagree with his border policy. I know his hands are tied in places but I think he could assert his authority more than he does. Others certainly disagree ;)
ANY president will face this border Illegal issue. I hope they act to all our benefit.
Thanks for the link !
Perry is the only candidate who can effectively compare his jobs creation record to Obama’s. I’m glad to see him on the attack !
Texas just keeps on keepin’ on under Perry’s leadership...look at the contrast in the latest monthly data...
“From just October 2011 to November 2011, we added over 20,000 new workers; in the other 49 states, close to 150,000 dropped out.”
Why do we fence the White house and military bases if they don’t work?
The reason the virtual fence failed is the very same reason patrols alone will fail. We cannot be everywhere and they get in through the cracks where we are not at that moment...then we gotta give chase and thats where the “Democrats and Lawyers” come in to stop the BP from doing their jobs.
Where where we can effectively use those natural barriers like the gorge pic upthread, by all means we should. No sense fencing a 200 foot vertical granite cliff...just put a guardhouse on it and at either end.
Security fences/barriers are effective for securing relatively small areas, such as the White House grounds, as long as there are 24/7 security personnel and surveillance technologies to enforce it. There’s no comparing that to securing the 2,000 mile southern border.
Just to be clear. I and others making my argument are not saying “fence and forget”. Of course there would be patrols. The fence itself would have guardhouses all along it.
Any fence that can work on the micro works just as effectively on the macro. High security fencing always uses guards. Water does not stop being wet because it falls in Cleveland rather than Denver. I do not understand the opposition people have. More importantly this particular argument is totally baffling to me and others. Do you not know history? Fences and like concepts have been a effective part of warfare for thousands of years. Are you unaware of the Great Wall of China and it’s effectiveness?
That thing was built by hand, is 3 times the length of Tex/Cali and over terrain that makes the American Southwest look like a plane of glass.
Bottom line: Fences work and illegal aliens/terrorists are less capable than the Mongolian Horde. And if they resort to the explosive force needed to Breach it, then we have a shooting war and the BP gets a vacation.
There’s no doubt that it’s technically possible to build a fence or other types of security barriers along the southern border, although parts of the Rio Grande may present a serious challenge. That’s not the question, however. Is it really necessary, and is it the most efficient use of resources?
That’s where we disagree. I don’t think it is necessary or efficient to build a fence all the way from the Gulf to the Pacific. The manpower and surveillance technologies, such as aerial drones, are the most important pieces to get in place ASAP. Fences can be built where and when needed. And if it proves necessary to build it the whole length of the southern border, it can be done.
It has to be a Holiday Inn Express. Otherwise, it doesn’t work.
See #136. Sure, I’m aware of all of that. In fact, I was curious about the Korean DMZ fence, so I read about it. There was a story about a pig farmer who was wanted for assault, so he cut a hole in the fence and defected to the other side. LoL!
A fence is only as good as those manning it. :)
Also, since I’m in full rant mode ;) Here;s another reason the strategic fence is a horrid mistake.
Indian Reservations.
I have the advantage of having lived near the Canadian border and the AZ/Mex border.
In upstate NY, the Coke from to Montreal from Florida did not enter in large part at Rouses Point. It went and probably still does through old logging/dirt roads through one reservation. A place where American BP was unable to patrol effectively. I know this to be true as I was once in my teen years, offered a job ‘running it” which I declined.
In AZ today, a major drug route also runs through a reservation where the ‘treaties’ do not allow for NG or much BP activity. This isn’t an indictment of the tribes, just a reality of our screwed up priorities.
National security trumps Indian treaties. A fence across a couple hundred miles of reservation negates the BS involved with constantly dealing with tribes that don’t want American authorities on tribal land. It closes down those main drug routes and again, saves all the work, money and manpower required to deal with patrolling and enforcing “around” the perimeter of the Rez...which in turn leads to even more BS dealing with accusations of profiling and other nice Democrat tricks they use to build their powerbase.
More detail on that particular subject.....
Today, we have a BP agent in prison and Holder threatening his family for cash because he did his job. Ramos/Campeon also come to mind...pawns in a Democrat political power play.
The OWS crowd is recruiting and joining with racist groups like LaRaza to use the ‘poor abused illegal” angle to further further the left’s power and influence.
Is there one Freeper willing to go on record saying that the Democrats do not use the border issue for political gain?
So then does it not stand to reason that we are further ahead on the road to solving the actual problem by minimizing their ability to use allegations of BP abuse, enviro etc issues to demagogue with?
Can you imagine the result of President Perry put a few thousand BP/Guard out there who actually did their job effictively? 24/7 media screaming NAZI!!! would be the start and the courts would be gridlocked with ACLU lawsuits.
Just another point from an earlier thread brought here for consideration. If anyone denies this scenario, lets discuss it.
“It has to be a Holiday Inn Express. Otherwise, it doesn’t work.”
Figures.... ;)
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