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To: kosta50
In fact the whole John 3:3-4 is suspect because such pun, even if it were, could not have been understood as such by Nicodemus in Aramaic because in Aramaic the word 'from above' and 'again' are not even close. And it's a real stretch to even imply that Jesus used a really strange Greek hyperbole to a member of the Sanhedrin.

John made it up...

Your point that the word anothen means "from above, from the top" can be freely granted without reading into the passage everything else you are reading into it. And as far as a highly educated Nicodemus not understanding a Greek concept, if indeed that was what Jesus was using, at other times when it suits your purpose you tell us how Hellenized the Jews were. Most Jews lived life as participants in both cultures. Your conclusion that John made it up is overreaching, considering the little amount of evidence you have presented in support of it.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

John 3:3

Except a man be born anew (ean mh tiv gennhthi anwten).
Another condition of the third class, undetermined but with prospect of determination. First aorist passive subjunctive of gennaw. Anwten. Originally "from above" (Mark 15:38), then "from heaven" (John 3:31), then "from the first" (Luke 1:3), and then "again" (palin anwten, Galatians 4:9). Which is the meaning here? The puzzle of Nicodemus shows (deuteron, verse 3:4) that he took it as "again," a second birth from the womb. The Vulgate translates it by renatus fuerit denuo. But the misapprehension of Nicodemus does not prove the meaning of Jesus. In the other passages in John (3:31; 19:11,23) the meaning is "from above" (desuper) and usually so in the Synoptics. It is a second birth, to be sure, regeneration, but a birth from above by the Spirit.
[emphasis mine]

Cordially,

3,332 posted on 06/14/2011 6:48:47 PM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond
So, you are saying Jesus was speaking sophsiticated Greek to a member of Sanhedrin? That's novel.

Your own example shows that anothen never meant "again". In fact it mentions that Paul uses is in a single instance together with palin (which mean again)in a rather curious way:

And as far as a highly educated Nicodemus not understanding a Greek concept, if indeed that was what Jesus was using

Nicodemus' reaction is simply non sequitur. It is a real mystery how Nicodemus, assuming he understood Greek, could have (mis)understood genneti anothen as "born again" (or better yet "born anew") rather than "born from above".

at other times when it suits your purpose you tell us how Hellenized the Jews were

I never said all Jews were Hellenized. The Jews in the dispersion, in Asia Minor and Egypt (Alexandria) were thorgoughly Hellenized; not the Palesitnian Jews.

3,339 posted on 06/14/2011 8:46:02 PM PDT by kosta50
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