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LOL, the delusion-induced ecstasy at imagining they've managed to hurt you in some way is so laughably clockwork-like, it isn't even surprising - it's yawn-inducing.

You see, Kosta, they're merely trying to pull the debate into that fog wherein anything is everything, and everything is anything. Don't fall for that. They'll never be able to answer with a bold face, the questions asked earlier, summarized again in this one.

The tactic is so shameful, yet they have no shame in being deceptive. A lengthwise perusal of this thread, by anyone with an honest mind, shows who is trying to do what.

So, for anyone who really wants to give a try, here was what was asked:

Do they agree that individuals can be saved without having faith in THEIR CHOSEN deity, if they are ignorant of the deity in the first place?

Because otherwise, it would imply that the tribals who haven't heard of their deity will have to be condemned on account of ignorance. And, if this is not true, then it would mean that the ignorant are saved by default on account of the ignorance of THEIR CHOSEN deity - which then implies that ignorance guarantees salvation, and becomes a better alternative to actual knowledge.

Which one will it be?

Is this man, who lives in the Nicobar Islands, hasn't heard of civilisation, and is trying to shoot down with an arrow from a bow, an aid helicopter that's throwing relief supplies, saved by his ignorance about THEIR CHOSEN deity? Or is he saved because he has the ignorance excuse?

"Is this man, who lives in the Nicobar Islands, hasn't heard of civilisation, and is trying to shoot down with an arrow from a bow, an aid helicopter that's throwing relief supplies, saved by his ignorance about THEIR CHOSEN deity? Or is he saved because he has the ignorance excuse?"

John 12:5-7

“Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He (Judas) did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

"Do they agree that individuals can be saved without having faith in THEIR CHOSEN deity, if they are ignorant of the deity in the first place?"

"Because otherwise, it would imply that the tribals who haven't heard of their deity will have to be condemned on account of ignorance. And, if this is not true, then it would mean that the ignorant are saved by default on account of the ignorance of THEIR CHOSEN deity - which then implies that ignorance guarantees salvation, and becomes a better alternative to actual knowledge."

Romans 3:3-8 - "For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”

"But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?"

"For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just."

Ecclesiastes 1:9 - "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

"Do they agree that individuals can be saved without having faith in THEIR CHOSEN deity, if they are ignorant of the deity in the first place?"

Romans 3:3-8 - "For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.”

"But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?"

Ecclesiastes 1:9 - "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."

LOL, the delusion-induced ecstasy at imagining they've managed to hurt you in some way is so laughably clockwork-like, it isn't even surprising - it's yawn-inducing

As much as they believe their imagination I wouldn't be surprised if they believed they did. After all, if they can convince themselves to believe all sorts of other things without any proof, why not a delusion that they manged to "hurt" me. Their blather to me is like mind over matter: I don't mind and they don't matter. :)

You know, if all people in all cultures came to believe in the same God, if there was some sort of uniformity in all religions it would still be difficult to prove that they reveal some 'vertical' truth.

It could very well be something genetic, or innate, a phenomenon of our biology, but at least we wouldn't be having a discussion about it, as we don't have a discussion or disagreement about gravity, even though we can't see it, or know why it is; we know that it is because it affects all the same way without exception.

But the diversity of beliefs in various (man-made, chosen) deities, the incompatible differences among members of the same religion, all claiming to know the 'true God', while all others being 'false', just makes it unlikely, imo.

Once thing is certain: their stories would never work in the real world, at work or in courts. Try not showing up to work because some chosen deity told you to stay home, and see how long you can keep your job. Or try leaving work early because your chosen deity wants you home. Lol. Or, worse, try pleading not guilty to a crime because your chosen deity told you to commit it in order to 'save' someone!

If this seems bizarre, Paul actually suggests that Christians can commit someone to Satan, to destroy that someone's flesh, in order to save his soul. Andrea Yates comes to mind. Sometimes it all borders on dementia, imo.

Which one will it be?

They can't answer you, because the answer, one way or another, exposes weakness in their story. So, they will dance around it, quote their books, invoke verticals and horizontals, smother you with mile-long copy-and-paste articles from their favorite chosen authorities, or simply try to insult you, describing what you said as having a distinct "odor", and what not, but in the end it all means one thing: they have nothing.

I was watching Anthony Weiner yesterday and I was thinking how every lie is eventually exposed and the only thing every liar hopes for is that his lies are not exposed in his lifetime. But it also reminded me how every liar reacts when his bluff is called and how convinced he sounds in defending his lie with more lies, indignant, insulting, angry, and unfortunately obvious.

I do not wish it on anyone to be exposed like he was (no pun intended!). I also don't know who is lying and who is not when it comes to different beliefs, and there are so many beliefs MAN has created, all claiming to be the truth, every sect and cult assured that their chosen deity is the right one, everyone's idea of how the world came to be "just the way it happened."

For their sake I hope mankind never debunks some of those beliefs in their lifetime the way demon-caused illnesses, or flat earth, or lightening or erupting volcanoes being associated with angry deities, and some other fairy tales man held to be true have been debunked.

In the meantime, I will enjoy listening to their arguments, as I listen to all other arguments, and take them with a grain a salt, always mindful that they are the opinions of ordinary, fallible, mortal humans; that they are not God, even if some may believe they are, or at least his mouthpiece.