Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
I didn't say they were. I did say that Ananias spoke some words. But the simplification still remains. Do you believe an unbaptized(meaning water baptism) is condemned?
Jesus Christ: Mk 16:16: 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned., John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Do listen to what Jesus Christ says -- please refrain from adding human mislogic to His words...
So, is Andrew's post correct that baptism is not necessary to be saved? Or are you, boatbums, disagreeing?
errr.. Andrew -- this is precisely what I meant by 'BAers philosophy is incomplete' -- Jesus Christ's words in John 6:54 are [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day -- not just one going out to eat a Caesar's salad with schnapps.
Jesus is here speaking in symbolic, not literal, language.
One way to look at these various yet intimately related symbols:
"To cast out demons" means to defeat the enemies of Truth;
"To speak in new tongues" symbolizes the universal outreach of the Word of Good News to all humanity. Last time I checked, the Holy Bible had been translated into more than 2,200 languages.
"To pick up serpents with their hands" is to directly confront instances of evil that occur in daily life, to stand firmly in God's Truth for His Name's sake.
"And if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them" because they who stand in the Lord of Life are under His eternal protection.
Which is tantamount to saying that we humans are more than our mortal bodies; and our destiny is not a function of time, let alone of our own efforts; but of eternity — in the here and now and forever.
That "they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover" simply means that Truth and Light are the greatest disinfectants of all....
Well, different folks can engage these same symbols and come up with different meanings, based on their own observation and experience. Which is just as it should be, IMHO.
The point is, when it comes to symbolic language, there are no "right-or-wrong" answers. The Holy Scriptures are (IMHO) a direct appeal from God to individual human souls. It is an invitation to communication with Him. In His Book, He tells us of Himself "truthfully, but not exhaustively." He seeks communion with His children. The rest is up to us.
Thus it seems to me the Holy Scriptures cannot fruitfully be read as an "instruction manual." As anybody who has a car user's manual probably already knows, the type of language used in such publications is deadly literal. Symbolic language is never employed. I can hardly fathom it....
Symbolic language always points to the larger context in which it occurs. Questions of meaning and value can only be asked when such a context is present.
But "literal-minded" people will almost always miss this aspect of the problem.
Or so it seems to me.... FWIW
Thank you ever so much dear sister in Christ for your excellent essay/post!
I wouldn’t draw a parallel between Christ and the Pharisees.
Neither would I pick and choose from His teaching.
Would I be mistaken in taking your last post as arguing that Baptism *is* optional?
hen did Jesus tell the theif that he would be in heaven?
BEFORE Jesus Christ died, right?
The thief lived under the OLD Covenant who received the grace and mercy of the Lord. The NEW covenant was not inaugurated until Jesus Christ's death on the Cross, refer Colossians 2:12-17
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.Christ ended the Old Testament nailing it to his cross;
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Remember that each of God's covenants was with a sacrifice -- and for the Jews in the OT, there was forgiveness of sins which involved an animal sacrifice at the temple -- and in the case of the New Covenant of Christ this was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is commanded after THE RESURRECTION read Matthew 28:18-20
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.or Mark 16:15-1619Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.the thief was promised in the OLD Covenant while in his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
| 38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? |
Lk 12:50
| 50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! |
The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.
Jn 19:34
| 34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. |
1 Jn 5:6-8
| 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. |
From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit" Jn 3:5
| 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. |
in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
And you don't understand parables. Why do you not answer my simple question?
And speaking about schnapp's why did Paul criticize the Corinthians' practice about the Lord's supper? And how many times do we have to partake of the Lord's supper. What if we miss one?
Are you Jesus?
Now the New Testament brought to the final conclusion the revelations of God to His people throughout previous ages. With the death of the last apostle, there was no more prophecy, including tongues (which were prophecy in another language). We still get illumination from the Spirit through the Word, but no new revelations of the Spirit (see the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 1, paragraph 6).Now, I don't agree with this Calvinist viewpoint shutting off the miracles today
These words warning of plagues to those who added to "this book" and damnation to those who took away from it are exceedingly solemn. I do not say that these literally apply to those who profess to speak in tongues (they are not intentionally adding to the Word of God), but the passage does speak to the absolute sufficiency of Scripture as we have it.
A little more elaboration might help me understand your point.
Give it up, Cronos! That goofy, nonsense didn’t work the first six times you said it, what makes you think another few times will???
hen did Jesus tell the theif that he would be in heaven?
BEFORE Jesus Christ died, right?
The thief lived under the OLD Covenant who received the grace and mercy of the Lord. The NEW covenant was not inaugurated until Jesus Christ's death on the Cross, refer Colossians 2:12-17
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.Christ ended the Old Testament nailing it to his cross;
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Remember that each of God's covenants was with a sacrifice -- and for the Jews in the OT, there was forgiveness of sins which involved an animal sacrifice at the temple -- and in the case of the New Covenant of Christ this was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is commanded after THE RESURRECTION read Matthew 28:18-20
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.or Mark 16:15-1619Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.the thief was promised in the OLD Covenant while in his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Understood?
Repeating your words by pasting two posts together will not change my answer, post 3652.
These are not idle words, just as the parables are not tall tales to keep the folks entertained. Every word Jesus uttered had meaning. The 4 gospels are dripping with this, the direct utterances of God, the records of His actions
It is not good to put human logic on top of His words
I really doubr it. But I will give it a try.
I was comparing your view of Jesus' words to the Pharisee's view of God's words. They were concerned with ritual.
Yes, do. Good advice. Show me where Jesus said "water baptism". You are aware that theologians believe "born of water" speaks of human birth, right? Being born of water and of the Spirit means being born twice - a human birth and a spiritual birth. That is why Jesus said born again and why Nicodemus at first misunderstood Jesus to mean returning to his mother's womb. The only "mislogic" I see here is assuming whenever you see the word "baptize" it can only mean the rite of water baptism. Do listen to CONTEXT.
Chopping it back down won’t change my answer either.
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