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When Atheists Attack (Each Other)
Evolution News and Views ^ | April 28 2011 | Davld Klinghoffer

Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode

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To: Cronos; AndrewC; LeGrande; getoffmylawn
in my humble opinion only orthodoxy and zoroastrianism, logically provide the constructs that give hope, that make us human seeking to move forward.

And Zoroastrianism had a great deal of influence on the apocalyptic Judaism of early Christians. Together with Platonism, it created an amalgam mystery religion that was palatable to pagan Greeks and Romans, but not to Persians or the Jews. It's kind of like Mormonism of sorts, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, the best of all three...

3,181 posted on 06/13/2011 2:02:45 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: kosta50; Matchett-PI
Well, no doubt, science certainly "killed" God when it comes to diseases being caused by 'evil spirits' or similar superstitious beliefs closely associated with re;igion. I am sure the fact that science does this on a daily basis is a source of animosity among some fundamental Christians with respect to science.

I have a friend whose mom was a "Christian Scientist" and she died of cancer while ignoring doctors because she was sure Jesus would heal her.

3,182 posted on 06/13/2011 2:09:16 PM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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To: Cronos
The elevation of worship of a book to the definitions of ones belief is at the same level as the Sikhs or Sunnis.

I don't know of anyone who prays to the Bible. But I do know Jesus put emphasis on writing when he used "It is written" and when after reading Isaiah in the synagogue he said, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

3,183 posted on 06/13/2011 2:15:04 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: getoffmylawn
I have a friend whose mom was a "Christian Scientist" and she died of cancer while ignoring doctors because she was sure Jesus would heal her.

And I know of lots of people with cancer who followed the doctor's advice and died of the cancer despite the extreme measures used in an attempt to cure it.

That said, God provides doctors with wisdom and training for a reason. And that reason is not to hang a pretty diploma on the wall.

3,184 posted on 06/13/2011 2:20:51 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: kosta50; Matchett-PI; metmom; betty boop; ejonesie22; caww; boatbums
Exercise in futlity and a waste of bandwith.

Not really - those are salient points that your uncredable witness theory falls to pieces on.

3,185 posted on 06/13/2011 2:30:13 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Cronos; kosta50; AndrewC; LeGrande
No, in my humble opinion only orthodoxy and zoroastrianism, logically provide the constructs that give hope, that make us human seeking to move forward.

I think there's something to Sufi Islam too (I have to keep reminding me of that because I tend to be very hard on Islam). While I'm not completely read up on Sufism I get a strong sense that the Holy Spirit may be working with those folks. I used to work with a Sufi guy from Pakistan and I swear the guy just oozed peace and hope. When I told him I was an Orthodox Christian his eyes lit up and he gave me a big warm loving smile and pretty much treated me like a brother or kindred spirit after that, so I looked into his a faith a bit.

It seems the Sufis are all about the LOVE of God. They are almost the polar opposites of the Wahabbi Islam folks. Now I understand the Sufi temples are under constantly under threat of direct attack from Wahabbi suicide bombers in Pakistan.

I guess the Sufi faith could be considered similar to that of the Apostolic Church in its preaching of an unconditionally loving God, and Wahabbis and Sola Scriptura Prots have the same evil fire and brimstone 'God'.

3,186 posted on 06/13/2011 2:32:16 PM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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To: kosta50
"...you conveniently left out true description of what Nietzsche was talking about...Again, that hardly makes him a nihilist."

I left nothing out that proves he was a nihilist, as you know.

Here he is, in your face again, in all his nihilistic glory:

"...on the matter of "nihilism" and whether or not Nietzsche was a "nihilist", you don't know what you're talking about. All I had to do to make a short and sweet Google search just now using these key words:

Google search words result:

Nietzsche's +new+ form+ of+ "active nihilism"+ he+ calls +a +"sign of strength"

<>

NOTE: You'll notice that he says _his_ 'active' nihilism is designed to "level the field for constructing something new". This form of nihilism is characterized by Nietzsche as "a sign of strength," a willful destruction of the old values to wipe the slate clean and lay down one's own beliefs and interpretations. By the constructing of new meaning, this active nihilism could be related to what Nietzsche elsewhere calls a 'free spirit' or the Übermensch from Thus Spoke Zarathustra and the Antichrist, the model of the strong individual who posits his own values and lives his life as if it were a work of art.

3,187 posted on 06/13/2011 2:42:13 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: kosta50; boatbums; LeGrande; James C. Bennett; getoffmylawn; betty boop
"Well, no doubt, science certainly "killed" God when it comes to diseases being caused by 'evil spirits' or similar superstitious beliefs closely associated with re;igion. I am sure the fact that science does this on a daily basis is a source of animosity among some fundamental Christians with respect to science."

But that wasn't the sort of science Nietzsche was talking about, was it.___For Nietzsche___ this shows that man is the product of evolution ("Darwinistic" evolution /"evolutionism", as opposed to true evolution), that earth has no special place among the stars, that history is not progressive, and that the Christian notion of God can no longer serve as a basis for a morality.

3,188 posted on 06/13/2011 2:52:59 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Godzilla; kosta50; metmom; betty boop; ejonesie22; caww; boatbums
kosta50 wrote: "Exercise in futlity and a waste of bandwith."

You responded: "Not really....those are salient points that your uncredable witness theory falls to pieces on."

:)

3,189 posted on 06/13/2011 3:04:09 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: James C. Bennett
Basically, you're saying that your faith is based on fear... on blackmail. To look at it the other way, the only life you have, the only temporary passage of moments in which the elements that you comprise of, is somewhat self-aware, is wasted in delusion and superstition, ignoring this only precious time you have, in the futile expectation of a "better" one. That's not what some people are willing to waste their only lives for.

Besides, what is the reason for this deity to exact coerced "faith" in this "period of existence"? Since the "soul" is always sentient, why should "faith" be extracted through fear only when one is alive? This does not seem reasonable, in the least.

Scripture says the fear (reverence/respect) of God is the BEGINNING of knowledge. So my faith is NOT based upon fear nor blackmail like you seem to think it is. Rather, it is a recognition of the Creator as he has revealed himself to mankind. It is accepting the truth that he is all powerful, all holy, all merciful, all just and all love. We were not left to figure out the meaning of our existence all on our own. It is also a recognition that the life I have today, right now in the nasty here and now - rather than the sweet by and by of eternity - is wonderful. I have peace that passes all understanding. I have an amazing husband that I thank God for every day. I have family and friends that love me and whom I love as well. I have all I need and want for nothing. How could you describe it as "wasted"? Wasted on what, exactly? Like Jesus said, he who keeps his life loses it and whoever loses his life for my sake, keeps it. Perhaps one day you will be able to understand the wisdom and meaning of that. He came to give us life, abundant life, right now and for all eternity.

3,190 posted on 06/13/2011 3:28:03 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: betty boop; LeGrande; Alamo-Girl; Godzilla; xzins; kosta50; metmom; James C. Bennett
You wrote to LaGrande: "Contra your view, my understanding is that Christ is the Word of the Beginning, and Final Judge of the End. He is Son of God, Alpha and Omega. He is the foundation of Truth, from first to last — and all the "in-between." He is First and Final Cause — and Implicit Cause of all that evolves in between them."

You're really gonna REALLY like THIS

bttt

3,191 posted on 06/13/2011 3:29:10 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
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To: Cronos; kosta50; AndrewC; getoffmylawn

I went through a period of studying all of the other religions, didn’t bother with Islam, Jainism or Hindu, they just didn’t interest me.

Mostly I identified with Taoism (the westernized version anyway). Then I devolved back to Physics and found ‘God’ in the wavefunction collapse.

Now I have come back around again and am looking at ‘Religion’ (and most everything else I thought I knew something about) with my eyes wide open. I am once again like a child, seeing the world for the first time, but without the naive innocence of a child.

Everyday is a delightful new experience. Yesterday I figured out the Archers Paradox and properly tuned my wife’s bow for her. At first she was angry, but after a couple of shots she got a smile on her face and told me to run along.

Life is good.


3,192 posted on 06/13/2011 4:09:38 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: LeGrande
Life is good.

Follow your bliss :)

3,193 posted on 06/13/2011 4:18:23 PM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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To: kosta50
Evil exists only because there is free will. Free will is good

That make sno sense whatsoever, boatbums.

To the idea that an imaginary god is evil, my point was that evil doesn't exist because God is evil but that he created beings with free will and they chose evil. God did not create evil itself, he created the possibility for there to be evil. This is evidence, to me, that these beings could also choose good. Regardless, the fantasy story itself made no sense, so there was little point in carrying on.

3,194 posted on 06/13/2011 4:20:55 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: kosta50
Confucius say: always flush before you lift your toilet seat. :)

Whatever you do, please don't tell her I told that story. ;o)

3,195 posted on 06/13/2011 4:23:17 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: kosta50; Cronos; AndrewC; LeGrande; getoffmylawn
And Zoroastrianism had a great deal of influence on the apocalyptic Judaism of early Christians. Together with Platonism, it created an amalgam mystery religion that was palatable to pagan Greeks and Romans, but not to Persians or the Jews. It's kind of like Mormonism of sorts, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, the best of all three...

I couldn't agree more about the reference to Mormonism. Toss in the Standard Catholic Heresy and you have Mormonism in a nutshell.

Note to the Anti Mormon Born Againers Cabal bigots. If I was going to attack Mormonism that is how I would go about it, through Zoroastrianism.

3,196 posted on 06/13/2011 4:26:43 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
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To: boatbums; kosta50
The point is that there is no way of knowing that in the beginning there was only an Evil God and we only can experience what he wants us to experience. If he created an illusion of goodness just to fool you into believing there is goodness in God and the universe, you can't possibly know, because you only know what the evil God wants you to know.

Saying that God must be good is nothing more than wishful thinking. You can HOPE that God is good, but if he's all evil and he has just created an illusion of goodness to trick you, you won't know until you're dead and sliding down razor blades for eternity with nothing to eat but adorable kittens with the music of Sammy Hagar blaring over the loud speakers 24/7.

You. Know. NOTHING. All you have is faith and hope. That's all any of us has. To claim otherwise is to be deluded and worthy of ridicule.

3,197 posted on 06/13/2011 4:33:02 PM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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To: getoffmylawn; Matchett-PI
I have a friend whose mom was a "Christian Scientist" and she died of cancer while ignoring doctors because she was sure Jesus would heal her

I have yet to understand why some believe that God supposedly heals cancer but won't give a paraplegic new limbs, no matter how much they pray.

3,198 posted on 06/13/2011 4:36:42 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: Elsie

That was the EXACT verse that came to my mind too!


3,199 posted on 06/13/2011 4:38:28 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: LeGrande
Note to the Anti Mormon Born Againers Cabal bigots. If I was going to attack Mormonism that is how I would go about it, through Zoroastrianism.

Ahhh... the good old AMBACB. They hit me up for 20 bucks at the supermarket the other day. I got a neat Sarah Palin button for my donation :)

3,200 posted on 06/13/2011 4:39:05 PM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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