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To: AmericanVictory
"You continue to ignore that Wong Kim Ark was about the 14th Amendment and its use of the word "citize" is strictly in that context."

Such a claim cannot be honestly maintained by anyone who has read the actual decision. It contains what remains to this day the most comprehensive treatment in any Supreme Court Decision regarding the origin and history of American citizenship law, and it deals with the definition of "natural born citizen" in exhaustive detail. To pretend otherwise is just whistling past the graveyard.

Certainly, its discussion of NBC is not lost on other judges. I refer you to the recent decision in Ankeny v. Governor of Indiana in which the panel of Appeals Court Judges unanimously cited WKA in their decision regarding the Article II meaning of NBC.

There is very little ambiguity to be found in:

"Based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are “natural born Citizens” for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents."

You are equally confused regarding the Venus case. The reason for consulting de Vattel had nothing to do with his opinions on citizenship, it had entirely to do with his opinions on domicile. Yes... I know that Birthers confuse those too, but real jurists and lawyers do not.

Now... it is sad that your inability to comprehend Case Law is matched by your inability to comprehend your opponent's posts. I never attribute to malice that which is more easily explained by ignorance, but if you think I "quoted Cicero" in any relation to English common law you are certainly lost in the woods. It was quoted to demonstrate in as direct a manner as possible that you had no idea what you were talking about when you claimed there was no use of the term "citizen" in England.

Your gloss of the historical conflict between "republicanism and monarchism" might be interesting were it not completely irrelevant. The terms subject and citizen are still exactly synonymous, as the Supreme Court has so eloquently assured us all.

Now, if you have something other than irrelevant pedantry to add to the discussion, come on back. But I feel no obligation to follow you over the precipice into prolix meaninglessness.
1,305 posted on 02/22/2010 4:39:40 PM PST by EnderWiggins
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To: EnderWiggins
The actual decision was about the 14th Amendment, inescapably, which did not exist until it was passed in reaction to the Dred Scott decision, which held that parentage was determinative of citizenship as you may recall, a point which the indiana appellate judges seemed to have overlooked. The discussion of domicile in The Venus was in the context of citizenship of those who were domiclied. It appears that you go back and get advice from your masters. Are they by any chance at Perkins Coie and do they bill the campaign? Here's a little quote for you from a well-known founder: “The common law of England is not the common law of these States.” —George Mason And how about this: James Madison’s own State of Virginia adopted a birthright law authored by Thomas Jefferson in 1779 that recognized parentage (citizenship of father) in determining citizenship of the child:

[A]ll infants, wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise, whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father, if living, or otherwise, their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this Commonwealth until they relinquish that character, in manner as hereinafter expressed; and all others not being citizens of any, of the United States of America, shall be deemed aliens.

Some States made citizenship conditional on either parent in terms of their citizenship, such as Kentucky: “[E]very child, wherever born, whose father or mother was or shall be a citizen of Kentucky at the birth of such child, shall be deemed citizens of that State.” One common law found in a number of States that defined those born as citizens read, “All persons born in this state, and resident within it, except the children of transient aliens, and of alien public ministers and consuls, etc.”

Until the 14th Amendment was passed in reaction to what the law was found to be in Dred Scott there was no national law of citizenship.

When we aak the question:

Could a natural-born citizen perhaps be synonymous with the British term “natural-born subject”?

Here is the accurate answer:

It is very doubtful the framers adopted the doctrine found under the old English doctrine of “natural-born subject.” The British doctrine allowed for double allegiances, something the founders considered improper and dangerous. The American naturalization process required all males to twice renounce all allegiances with other governments and pledge their allegiance to this one before finally becoming a citizen.

Framer Rufus King said allegiance to the United States depended on whether a person is a “member of the body politic.” King says no nation should adopt or naturalize a person of another society without the consent of that person. The reason? Because “he ought not silently to be embarrassed with a double allegiance.” House Report No. 784, dated June 22, 1874, stated, “The United States have not recognized a ‘double allegiance.’ By our law a citizen is bound to be ‘true and faithful’ alone to our government.”

Under the old English common law doctrine of natural-born subject, birth itself was an act of naturalization that required no prior consent or demanded allegiance to the nation in advance. Furthermore, birth was viewed as enjoining a “perpetual allegiance” upon all that could never be severed or altered by any change of time or act of anyone. England’s “perpetual allegiance” due from birth was extremely unpopular in this country; often referred to as absurd barbarism, or simply perpetual nonsense. America went to war with England over the doctrine behind “natural-born subject” in June of 1812.

Because Britain considered all who were born within the dominions of the crown to be its natural-born subjects even after becoming naturalized citizens of the United States, led to British vessels blockading American ports. Under the British blockade, every American ship entering or leaving was boarded by soldiers in search of British born subjects. At least 6,000 American citizens who were found to be British natural-born subjects were pressed into military service on behalf of the British Empire, and thus, the reason we went to war.

It remains the case that the national law at the time of the 14th Acmendment, before it was passed, did not adopt the approach set out by Coke in Calvin's case to solve the problem of the Stuart succession to the crown of England in the person of James I and in fact in the period before its passge the law as declared was that of Taney's opinion in Dred Scott, however unattractive that may have been.

You know Perkins Coie briefs in a manner very similar to your manner of posting, with great misrepresentation and inaccuracy. Let's face it you and your master rely upon intimidation of the judiciary and having your state run media and captive "intellectuals" rely upon ridicule rather than history and the actual law.

1,317 posted on 02/23/2010 8:05:40 AM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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