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To: FreeKeys
sources and references?

You mean, other than the fact that the first Thanksgiving feast was held in the fall of 1621, to celebrate the Pilgrims' first successful harvest ... and that, a decade before the supposed transition to a free market economy?

The article is cute, but it's bullsh*t, FRiend.

78 posted on 11/23/2009 1:05:10 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

Michael Medved tells the same story for Thanksgiving.

According to native sources, the Indians provided venison, corn pudding, pumpkin, native birds and fish to the Pilgrims for the feast.

If they had a great harvest, perhaps they would have been feeding he natives, not the other way around. There are a whole lot of sources in this article.

Could you please share yours? I don’t want to teach my kids any untruths.


79 posted on 11/23/2009 4:27:28 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: r9etb; bamahead; netmilsmom; All
you 'experts' weigh in with stuff like : You mean, other than the fact that the first Thanksgiving feast was held in the fall of 1621, to celebrate the Pilgrims' first successful harvest ... and that, a decade before the supposed transition to a free market economy? "

The article is cute, but it's bullsh*t, FRiend." and that they had no bountiful harvest that first fall -

No. 1, it wasn't a 'decade' before Bradford abandoned the communal approach and went to individual ownership/endeavor...he did that in 1623.

And, in his own hand, he wrote of that 1621 harvest: (and I would suggest to netmilsmom, that if, as you say, you want to teach the truth to your kids, you try reading what those who WERE THERE had to say) -

From Gov. Bradford's JOURNAL (let's at least get that straight. It was not his 'dairies' - it was a FAMILY JOURNAL he wrote for his descendent's.

To back up a bit from the Giving Thanks 3 day festival at the end of harvest in 1621, going back to July, and after making friends with the local Indians under the leadership of Massasoit. They made a trek to the Indian village and found them in poor straits, particularly as to food. Bradford tells how the men that visited the village 40 miles from Plymouth, came back tired and famished as the Indians, at that time, were still suffering from their terrible years of the 'wasting plague" and had little food.

Bradford: "For the Indeans used then to have nothing...They found ... the soyle good, & the people not many, being dead & abundantly wasted in the late great mortalitie which fell in all parts aboute three years before the coming of the English, wherein thousands of them dyed, they not being able to burie one another their sculs and bones were found in many places lying still above ground, where their houses & dwellings had been;a very sad spectackle to behold."

So the Indians, in 1621, were still suffering from their devastating losses from the sickness - which is what had wiped out Squanto's whole village (while he was a prisoner in Spain/England.) Indeed, when he returned and found all his people dead, not one left, he went to live with Massasoits people...and when the Pilgrims inquired as to whom they could pay to occupy the cleared land where the village had been, the Indians said they were welcome to it as there were no longer any to claim it.

Squanto had, that first spring, quickly moved to the Plymouth Village area, as he preferred the way the English lived, due to his years in Europe. He was invaluable to the colonists, as an interpretor and in teaching them how catch fish - and get eels out of the mud - and how to plant seeds in the new land, particularly corn. This was most instrumental in a bountiful harvest come Sept 1621 - so much so that they decided on a 3 day festival for Giving Thanks.

They invited Massasoit and 5 braves. They were to learn that when you invite one, in Indian society, you invite all. And so they were surprised when "90 braves" showed up. In those days, women and children would likely not have been mentioned in the count, so there were probably many more than 90.

Seeing the concern on the Pilgrims faces, Massasoit quickly summed up the problem and sent out a hunting party that came back with 5 deer.

They feasted, played games and had a grand old time for 3 days. However, they still had plenty of food to see through winter..

Then, at the end of Nov., over the horizon, came a ship they had not requested nor expected, full of people who - well, let's go back to Bradford's words:

"...there came a small ship to them unexpected or looked for, in came Mr. Cushman...and with him 35 persons to remain & live in the plantation; which did not a little rejoyce them. And when they came a shore and found all well, and saw plenty of vitails in every house, were no less glade. For most of them were lusty young men, and many of them wild enough, ...[this is where the lazy, etc, came in - NOT from the Pilgrim fathers] when they landed in Plymouth} ...there was not so much as bisket-cake or any other victialls for them, neither had they any bedding, ...nor pot nor pan, to drese any meate in; nor overmany cloaths..."

Bradford went on to say that . although they were glad of additional numbers, strength wise, they "could have wished that they had been in better condition,and all of them better furnished with provissions; but, " he wrote, "that could not now be helpte."

So they had a truly bountiful harvest and would have made it through the winter fine - had they not have been put upon by and almost doubling of their population to be fed and clothed and housed...

And these were not 'Pilgrims' with a common goal and togetherness. How would YOU fare under such circumstances, with no super markets down the road. Now, as to foods that first Thanksgiving, as Bradford mentioned, the Indians went out an bagged 5 deer, so we know they had venison. (Many of us up here still have venison along with turkey for the meal. I use homemade mincemeat pie, made with venison>)

Bradford, in "Mourt's Relations", which he and Edward Winslow wrote, lists some of the foods:

"Our harvest being gotten in, our Governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a more special manner rejoice together, ...They four in one day killed as much fowl as , with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, amonst other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians going amonst us, and amongst the rest their great king, Massasoit. with some 90 men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted. And they went out and killed 5 deer which they brought to the plantation and bestowed on our Governor..."

Back to his Journal, besides commenting on the plentiful harvest that year and the storing up of food that they "had all things in good and plenty" - and besides "a store of fowl...there was great store of wilde turkeys, of which they took many besides venison ...corn" etc.

After the devastating influx of the unexpected ship full of people with no provisions of their own, the Gov. and Winslow sent a letter to England with a list of provisions anyone coming to the colony would need to provide themselves with! After all, there was no WalMart over the hill.

Long post - but hopefully will dispel some of the NOTHING BUT PURE ASSUMPTIONS being made here.

Bradford was there. I'll take HIS word for it. And as I mentioned, if you want to know, to teach, or to opine, why don't you first go to the horses mouth and study. (I've been studying, researching and writing on them for over 50 years.)

106 posted on 11/24/2009 9:49:49 AM PST by maine-iac7 ("He has the right to criticize who has the heart to help" Lincoln)
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