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...these debates can never end. Parties on opposing sides cannot make the other accept what they see, as Dog Gone suggested earlier on this thread.

I don't have an interest in "making" the other person "accept" what I see. I'd be completely satisfied if I could just get some indication that they actually "saw" it. Then if they want to dispute my statements regarding the "seen thing" on rational grounds, truly I'd welcome them to do that.

But that rarely, if ever happens around here. Mostly we engage in "spitting matches" — all heat and no light. Nobody learns a thing. Sigh....

Of course you know I'm a mathematical Platonist, just as you are. I wholly concur that mathematics exists in an independent, indeed one could almost say sovereign manner; and thus becomes susceptible to being "discovered."

Roger Penrose refers to the ontological status of mathematics as the Platonic world of mathematical forms, which are universal and thus completely "objective." To say that mathematics is "invented" by human beings is, to my mind, foolishness on the verge of hubris. For this is to make mathematics constructible on the basis of "subjectivity." How could such a thing attain the status of universality? FWIW.

Thank you dearest sister in Christ for your most excellent essay-post!

Roger Penrose refers to the ontological status of mathematics as the Platonic world of mathematical forms, which are universal and thus completely "objective." To say that mathematics is "invented" by human beings is, to my mind, foolishness on the verge of hubris. For this is to make mathematics constructible on the basis of "subjectivity." How could such a thing attain the status of universality? FWIW.

A valid observation, but removed from the context of the original line of debate.

I submitted that of the things we all agree on, the common denominator is observable, empirical evidence. It was countered that this is not necessarily so, because we don't always agree on mathematics. Mathematics is not a good example to use, because it is not something that exhibits quantifiable properties. If anything, the disagreements demonstrate the argument I originally made.

[ To say that mathematics is "invented" by human beings is, to my mind, foolishness on the verge of hubris. ]

Human Mathematics is based on linear concepts.. i.e. zero,1 to infinity.. lineal..
Could be the whole system is NOT lineal.. but circular.. or some direction not noticeable in this realm..

[[But that rarely, if ever happens around here. Mostly we engage in “spitting matches” — all heat and no light.]]

I’ll have to dissagree with that statement- I and many others have presented the evidence refuting hte claism of Macroevolutionists- using hteir own science against htem- The TRUTH stands on it’s own accord- whether peopelcan see that light or not is another quesiton, but it is presented for anyone caring to take a more critical look at what they’ve been told is a naturalistic fact when in realitiy it is anythign but an established fact.

Thank you oh so very much for all of your outstanding essay-posts and for sharing your insights!

To say that mathematics is "invented" by human beings is, to my mind, foolishness on the verge of hubris. For this is to make mathematics constructible on the basis of "subjectivity." How could such a thing attain the status of universality? FWIW.

Precisely so - and every time a mathematician puts a variable in a formula he testifies to the universality of the mathematical structure.

But that rarely, if ever happens around here. Mostly we engage in "spitting matches" — all heat and no light. Nobody learns a thing. Sigh....

The usual debaters are not likely to change their views. But for the sake of the Lurkers the debate is a good thing because they may see something new and/or arrive at a better understanding.

[ Mostly we engage in "spitting matches" ]

And the hubris of the "Cat Herd"... is arrogance bordering on comedy.. For "we" on Free Republic are mostly like herding cats.. Pick a subject and some will be for and some against "it".. Any subject will be fully vetted.. When a subject is thrown into "the pit(thread)".. the audience fights EACH OTHER... LoL...

For theres pros and cons to every subject.. Even Apple Pie has its negatives.. as I look at my waist line.. Free Republic is a "concepts" best friend... as "its" conflated and deflated even dehydrated..

Who wins?...... Everyone.. Only weak spirits get harmed making them tougher..
The liars and disingenuous display their opusi..
And move on to relate to their own kind in other websites..