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To: Diego1618

I dispute your contention that the birth could not have occured “around Christmas time”. All of the data EMPHATICALLY places the birth in late December. Your case for the year is at least compelling but your case for a September birth is very weak....basically consisting of your interpretaion of John 1:14.

Given the climate, September is simply impossible. In my view, that Jesus was born on December 25th is an issue of verified historical fact.

The year is something more fluid...

more for you to consider...

(3) We know from an inscription from Paphlagonia in Asia Minor - cf.
Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, Source Book II, pp. 34-35 - that in
3 BC all the people took an oath of allegiance to Augustus. The same oath
is also reported by the Armenian historian Moses of Khorene, and by the
later historian Orosius.

(4) Augustus was to receive the great title of Pater Patriae on Feb. 5,
2 BC. So the actual governor of Palestine, probably Varus, would have had
to go to Rome for the festivities, and since sailing on the Mediterranean
stopped about Nov. 1, and did not resume until Spring, he must have gone in
the early fall of 3 BC. But Quirinius was nearby, had just finished a
successful war against the Homonadenses. So he was left as acting Governor.
Luke does not use the noun governor, but the participle, “governing”.

(5) There is an obscure decade in history, 6 BC to 4 AD, as Classicists
readily recognize. Yet this period is important, including the time when
Tiberius was absent from political life at Rome, being at Capri. It is hard
to fit the events of this period into place if we make the birth of Christ
early as is commonly done. But if we put it in 3 BC the difficulties are
over. For example, we know Augustus received his 15th acclamation for a
major victory, won by one of his generals, around this time. If we pick 4
BC for the death of Herod, we cannot find a victory to warrant the
acclamation, which came in 1 AD. But if we put the birth of Christ in 3 BC,
then the war would be running at about the needed time, and finished in 1
AD.

Objection: a) Josephus says Herod had a reign of 37 years after being
proclaimed king by Romans, and had 34 yrs. after death of Antigonus, which
came soon after Herod took Jerusalem. b) Further, his 3 successors,
Archelaus, Antipas and Philip started to reign in 4 BC. So Herod died in 4
BC.

Reply: a) That calculation would make death of Herod actually in 3 BC,
not in 4 BC - scholars have to stretch the date to 4 BC, since no eclipse
of moon happened in 3 BC. - But, Herod took Jerusalem late in 36 BC (on Yom
Kippur in a sabbatical year, so well remembered - and Josephus says Pompey
had taken Jerusalem in 63 which was 27 yrs. to the day of Herod’s capture
of Jerusalem). Using the common accession year dating, we see Herod started
his 34 years on Nisan 1 in 35 BC, and those years would end on Nisan 1 BC.
So 34 years after 35 BC yields 1 BC for death of Herod after eclipse of
Jan. 10.—b) As to the 3 successors, Herod lost favor of Augustus in 4 BC,
on a false report, was no longer “Friend of Caesar”, but “Subject”.
Antedating of reigns was common - reason here was to make the three seem to
connect with the two “royal” sons, of Hasmonean descent, Alexander and
Aristobulus, whom Herod executed on false reports from Antipater (do not
confuse with Antipas).

The Star: In the evening of June 17, 2 BC, there was a spectacular
astronomical event in the western sky. Venus moved eastward seemingly going
to collide with Jupiter. They appeared as one star, not two, dominating the
twilight of the western sky in the direction of Palestine. This conjunction
had not happened for centuries, would not happen again for more centuries.
Jupiter was considered the Father, Venus the Mother. Ten 19 days later, on
August 31st. Venus came within .36 degrees of Mercury. On Sept. 11 came the
New Moon, the Jewish New Year. This happened when Jupiter, the Kin planed
was approaching Regulus, the King star. Further, there were three
conjunctions of Jupiter and Regulus within the constellation of Leo, the
lion which was considered the head of the Zodiac. Now Gen. 49:10 had
foretold there would always be a ruler from Judah, whom Jacob called the
lion, until the time of the Messiah. Leo was dominated by the star Regulus,
which astronomers called the King Star. The Magi, being astronomers and
astrologers, would surely read these signs. (The three conjunctions with
Regulus were Aug. 12, 3 BC; Feb. 17, 2 BC, and May 8/9 2 BC).

Also, on Dec. 25 of 2 B.C., Jupiter stopped for 6 days over Bethlehem.
This is a normal motion for Jupiter, it stops twice, and reverses its
seeming movement. This may have been the very time the Magi came with their
gifts. This was also the time of the Hanukkah festival, during which it was
customary for Jewish Fathers to give gifts to their children.

.....the December 25th, 2BC date actually fits very well to almost all criteria...but I’ll keep looking into this.


97 posted on 12/21/2008 4:36:47 AM PST by SonlitKnight
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To: SonlitKnight
I dispute your contention that the birth could not have occurred “around Christmas time”. All of the data EMPHATICALLY places the birth in late December. Your case for the year is at least compelling but your case for a September birth is very weak....basically consisting of your interpretation of John 1:14.

{John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Dwelt: 4637. skenoo (skay-no'-o) to tent or encamp, i.e. (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specially), to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol of protection and communion)

[John 7:2] Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand. Tabernacles: 4634. skenopegia (skay-nop-ayg-ee'-ah) the Festival of Tabernacles (so called from the custom of erecting booths for temporary homes)

It is really not my interpretation.....it is the Greek language. That is why it is proper to render [John 1:14] And the Word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us. To introduce the nature and mission of Christ, John employs in his writings the metaphor of the "booth" of the Feast of Tabernacles. He shows us that Christ....the Word who was with God in the beginning has manifested himself in this world in a way that we cannot mistake. "He has Pitched His tent among us"! Do you think maybe John was linking the birth of Our Messiah to the Feast of Tabernacles? Sukkot was always known as the season of Joy and the Feast of the Nations [Luke 2:10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Given the climate, September is simply impossible. In my view, that Jesus was born on December 25th is an issue of verified historical fact.

The winter months in Israel are similar to what we experience in the central valley of California. Very cold nights....sometimes below freezing with some snow flurries during December and January. September....on the other hand can still be very mild at night....definitely pleasant during daylight hours. To bring your pregnant wife, on the back of a donkey, many miles encompassing more than just a few days .....would not be considered harsh....necessarily during the Fall Festivals.

As far as being historical fact.....Pope Liberius in 354 A.D. was the first Pontiff to recognize any day at all....and December 25th had been selected. The first "Christ-Mass" was celebrated by Pope Sixtus in 435 A.D. and coincided with the existing Roman celebration of Mithras. This was done in an attempt to divert the populace from the popular pagan feasts already instituted throughout the Church/State Empire. For the first three hundred odd years from the resurrection there were no celebrations of Our Lord's birthday.

Origen had written early in the third century that "In the scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world". (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3,p.724, "Natal Day".)

For the first three hundred years after the resurrection nothing is mentioned about the Birthday of Our Lord. And, of course....in addition to early history being silent about it.....the Apostles did not recognize or celebrate the nativity as well according to scripture.

My calculations and figures regarding the death of Herod from post #92 are correct.....and The Lord was born during the last few months of Herod's life.

104 posted on 12/21/2008 2:35:56 PM PST by Diego1618
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