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To: David
You said: "I don't know of anyone--no single source anywhere of any single person that even inferred that Stanley Ann was ever seen, even one time, in Honolulu in the period between February 1, 1961 (or whenever fall semester ended) and August 8, 1961." Then how do you interpret this? 1. "For Stanley Ann, her new relationship with Barack Obama and weekend discussions seemed to be, in part, a logical extension of long coffeehouse sessions in Seattle and the teachings of Wichterman and Foubert. The forum now involved graduate students from the University of Hawaii. They spent weekends listening to jazz, drinking beer and debating politics and world affairs." 2. "Six months after they wed, another letter arrived in Kenya, announcing the birth of Barack Hussein Obama, born Aug. 4, 1961. Despite her husband's continued anger, Sarah Obama said in a recent interview, she "was so happy to have a grandchild in the U.S." 3. "After Obama was accepted to study at Harvard, Stanley Ann disappeared from the University of Hawaii student gatherings, but she did not accompany her husband to Harvard. Abercrombie said he rarely saw her after that." http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0703270151mar27,0,1310554.story?page=4 Let me stipulate that nothing in the above directly STATES that Ann was still in Hawaii from February-July 1961. But the most straightforward "connecting the dots" suggests she was: First, does it really makes sense that Sarah Obama would remain completely silent about Ann's having actually been in Africa through the birth, as opposed to expressing either joy at being able to see BHO as an infant and/or expressing regret that Ann couldn't stay in Africa after he was born? Is your argument now that every Obama family member living in Africa has now been sworn to secrecy about what really happened? That's a might large group of conspirators to keep under wraps, don't you think? Second, in light of #1 above, it doesn't make sense that quote #3 would focus on noticing Ann's absence from student gatherings AFTER Senior went to Harvard (i.e., which didn't occur until Barack was 1 or 2, depending on which account you believe) yet say nothing of an extended period in which Ann and Barack Senior allegedly were missing from these lively grad student discussions during nearly all of spring semester 1961 [things could have changed somewhat, but UH's spring semester for the coming year starts in Jan. and ends in May http://www.hawaii.edu/academics/calendar/ as is true of most universities]. Assuredly, their absence may not have been missed during the summer. But PhD programs tend to be small and the same friend who noticed Ann's absence after Senior left most assuredly would have noticed her absence for an entire semester, especially since the fall 1960 "coupling" of these 2 was obviously pretty remarkable at the time.
4,524 posted on 08/08/2008 2:40:27 PM PDT by DrC
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To: DrC
Apologies for the unformatted version of this post.

You said: "I don't know of anyone--no single source anywhere of any single person that even inferred that Stanley Ann was ever seen, even one time, in Honolulu in the period between February 1, 1961 (or whenever fall semester ended) and August 8, 1961." Then how do you interpret this?

1. "For Stanley Ann, her new relationship with Barack Obama and weekend discussions seemed to be, in part, a logical extension of long coffeehouse sessions in Seattle and the teachings of Wichterman and Foubert. The forum now involved graduate students from the University of Hawaii. They spent weekends listening to jazz, drinking beer and debating politics and world affairs."

2. "Six months after they wed, another letter arrived in Kenya, announcing the birth of Barack Hussein Obama, born Aug. 4, 1961. Despite her husband's continued anger, Sarah Obama said in a recent interview, she "was so happy to have a grandchild in the U.S."

3. "After Obama was accepted to study at Harvard, Stanley Ann disappeared from the University of Hawaii student gatherings, but she did not accompany her husband to Harvard. Abercrombie said he rarely saw her after that." http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0703270151mar27,0,1310554.story?page=4

Let me stipulate that nothing in the above directly STATES that Ann was still in Hawaii from February-July 1961. But the most straightforward "connecting the dots" suggests she was: First, does it really makes sense that Sarah Obama would remain completely silent about Ann's having actually been in Africa through the birth, as opposed to expressing either joy at being able to see BHO as an infant and/or expressing regret that Ann couldn't stay in Africa after he was born? Is your argument now that every Obama family member living in Africa has now been sworn to secrecy about what really happened? That's a might large group of conspirators to keep under wraps, don't you think?

Second, in light of #1 above, it doesn't make sense that quote #3 would focus on noticing Ann's absence from student gatherings AFTER Senior went to Harvard (i.e., which didn't occur until Barack was 1 or 2, depending on which account you believe) yet say nothing of an extended period in which Ann and Barack Senior allegedly were missing from these lively grad student discussions during nearly all of spring semester 1961 [things could have changed somewhat, but UH's spring semester for the coming year starts in Jan. and ends in May http://www.hawaii.edu/academics/calendar/ as is true of most universities].

Assuredly, their absence may not have been missed during the summer. But PhD programs tend to be small and the same friend who noticed Ann's absence after Senior left most assuredly would have noticed her absence for an entire semester, especially since the fall 1960 "coupling" of these 2 was obviously pretty remarkable at the time.

4,526 posted on 08/08/2008 3:04:49 PM PDT by DrC
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To: DrC
Responsive to your #4524: That comes from the Chicago Tribune series which is an effort to lay a factual background for what he wants to say in public, particularly in the way of adding to or modifying his book. It's what lawyers call "self serving".

Obama's birth location and citizenship was an issue in his earlier campaigns. No one had either the resources or the incentive to do enough research to reach a conclusive answer--proof that he was not a citizen or had not been born in Hawaii was not dispositive of the political contest. In the case at hand, if it can be shown he was born in Kenya, he is disqualified.

But Obama knew, and has known for some time that he has a real Constitutional problem with the issue. Partial evidence of that is in his effort with the Sense of the Senate Resolution he got Clair McKaskil to introduce, ostensibly to support McCain--in fact to address Obama's problem.

Against that back drop, this is his course of events as to how it might have happened and fit the provable factual time line.

This is another one of those descriptions that doesn't set out any supportable fact that places Stanley Ann in Honolulu in the relevant period. Some might remember that she had a "new relationship with Barack Obama (sr)" and had "weekend discussions" which "now involved graduate students". Those things in fact happened in the fall semester of 1960. However it is not disputed that she dropped out of school after the first semester and was not there in the winter semester of 1961.

The people who would have noticed that she was missing probably did. But she returned in August, of 1961 and was present between 1961 and maybe some point in 1962--we could speculate that she parted company with Obama Sr. by March or April of 1962 if the report that she was enrolled at the University of Washington for Spring Quarter, 1962 is correct.

But the Hawaii record is very mushy for this period. I assume that an investigator could pin down exactly when Obama Sr. graduated; and when he in fact started at Harvard. An investigator could also look for Stanley Ann as a single mother student at Washington; with her child?

Sarah didn't remain silent at all. As late as January, there were articles interviewing the Kenya family in which Sarah affirmatively claimed to have been present when he was born in Kenya. Those are all now gone from the record. But enough people on line remember seeing them that there isn't any doubt they were there.

You are correct about the wide group of people whose testimony needs to be controlled--in my view, that is why he will fail. Sarah has now been instructed not to say anything substantive to the press as have the other members of the Kenya family.

Everyone understands that it is fatal to Obama's campaign effort if it can be shown that he was born in Kenya--and it is a relatively simple concept to get to what is in fact a fairly small group of people remaining who have first hand knowledge of 1961.

Obama's personal response has been to stonewall--answer no questions of any nature. Stanley Ann's mother who obviously knows, is sequestered. She remains in full possession of her facilities and will understand the game plan completely. And she will have able lawyers to resist subjecting her to a real deposition.

What is in process is a classic coverup with a cooperative press. Obama has the advantage of a limited time line--he may only need to play defense until November. His principal adversary, Mrs. Clinton, probably has command of more factual material than anyone else. But her tactical ability to use it is limited.

She can't be the person that actually uses the material because that will be politically fatal.

And she has difficulty using her surrogates effectively--because she really can't be sure she will get the nomination if Obama falls, or at least falls too soon. All she can do is threaten--and if it appears that she is getting close to a breakthrough with her surrogates, Obama has the option of trading her the Vice Presidential nomination to get her to shut up. That course of action has its own hazards.

His trip to Hawaii this weekend is timely. We may hear nothing about the outcome. But it is a fair assumption that some effort will be made to address the paper record with the Hawaii Department of Public Health to come up with a legend that will fit the available information.

4,527 posted on 08/08/2008 3:29:25 PM PDT by David (...)
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