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To: Degaston; colorcountry
What I think that colorcountry was asking was a serious question about whether or not you believe you can only return to the Father if you participate in certain LDS ordinance. So why don’t you answer the question. And I’ll break it down more simply. Do you believe its necessary to have baptism, confirmation, initiatory and endowment ordinances in order to gain exaltation? Yes or No?

Yes, and no. What you are doing is lumping the basic principles of the gospel with higher ordinances. Christ and the apostles clearly taught that unless we are obedient to the commandments and are baptized, then we can't enter into the kingdom of God. The principles of the Gospel are no different in the LDS doctrines. Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are the ONLY requirements to gain salvation and enter Heaven. What you are lumping is something different, it's like what Paul saw when he was caught up to the THIRD heaven, not the first.

Corinthians 12:

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The principles of the gospel are simple, and in order to gain entrance into heaven, one must simply follow the commands of Christ, His example and teachings are the milk. What you seem to be doing is striving after meat.

This will probably come across as very condescending, and for that I apologize, but I think it needs to be said. We get truth line upon line, precepts on precept, grace for grace, one thing at a time. Trying to understand the things of God without the Holy Ghost to help discern truth can be dangerous.

1 Cor. 3: 2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

394 posted on 06/14/2007 9:02:03 AM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: sevenbak

>> What you seem to be doing is striving after meat ....
>> .... Trying to understand the things of God without the
>> Holy Ghost to help discern truth can be dangerous.

OK ... you are using the “milk before meat” argument to try to get me to shut up about the endowment/sealing steps that are required for someone to get full exaltation according to LDS doctrine. Maybe this will sound condescending but it’ll make sense to anyone who is trying to seek the truth honestly.

The whole reason why the temple endowment is full of secrecy was because it was a preliminary step that Joseph Smith used on fellow Nauvoo followers to make sure they would keep their mouths shut about plural marriage. At the time that Joseph Smith introduced plural marriage it was ILLEGAL to practice bigamy or any other form of polygny in the state of Illinois. It was also against the church’s own Doctrine & Covenants. It wasn’t until 1852 that the church started to be honest (for a few decades) about their practice of plural marriage.

The temple endowment is heavily plagiarized from Masonic ceremonies that Joseph Smith went through himself just 6 weeks before he introduced the Endowment. And you won’t find a reputable scholar on this subject who thinks that the Masonic ceremonies originated before the medieval era. Ever heard of the handgrip of the Entered Apprentice? Ever heard of the handgrip of the Fellow Craft? Ever heard of the handgrip of the Master Mason? These handgrips have been plagiarized.

Some may call it sacred plagiarism to coverup the secret violations of Constitutionally sound laws in favor of God’s laws, but nevertheless its undeniably plagiarism and it was used to conspire in breaking the law. I’m sure most of the freepers here can understand these simple facts.

(1) In 1833, Illinois passes a law making it a crime to practice bigamy/polygamy.
(2) In 1835, the Mormon church puts Section 101 in their Doctrine & Covenants forbidding polygamy.
(3) In March 1843, Joseph Smith participates in Masonic rites and becomes a Master Mason.
(4) In May 1843, Joseph Smith introduces the Endowment, which contains word for word and symbolically so much of the key handgrips of the Masonic ceremonies.
(5) Those receiving their Endowments are put under covenant to keep this and the plural marriage sealings all secret from everyone; including the law enforcement officials of Illinois.
(6) Before someone can receive their marriage sealing they must first receive their Endowment and make the covenants of secrecy.

One more thing to add: according to the journals of my ancestors and other Mormon pioneers - they were taught that the Celestial Kingdom has 3 levels - the lowest level for those who choose to never marry; the middle level for the monogamists; and the highest level for those who enter into plural marriage. And its only because of this requirement for reaching the highest level that my great-great-great grandmothers ever agreed to let their husbands take plural wives.

A personal note to add: I made a promise to God that I would not plagiarize/cheat before I ever made any promises in the temple. And that’s why I feel totally free to talk about any ceremony that involves Masonic plagiarisms. I learned AFTER I got the Endowment about the plagiarisms; when frankly I should’ve learned about them beforehand.


405 posted on 06/14/2007 8:12:35 PM PDT by Degaston
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To: sevenbak
... one must simply follow the commands of Christ ...
Fascinating. Because someone handed me a gospel tract today that said that all I needed was faith. Not that I'm against commands, mind you. I'm a Jew; we're all about commands, lots and lots of commands in the form of precise specifications--i.e. mitzvot, of which, according to tradition, we have 613, only the sages disagree on what they are and exactly how they are numbered. And some of them don't apply anymore, e.g. the ones where we are commanded to kill people that no longer exist, or not to eat foods that we can no longer identify. I digress.

I had no idea that Rabbi Jesus issued his own mitzvot. I thought he said that he came not to add to the law and the prophets, but to fulfill them, or something like that.

How many commandments did Rabbi Smith issue to his Mormon flock?
414 posted on 06/14/2007 9:08:37 PM PDT by Asclepius (protectionists would outsource our dignity and prosperity in return for illusory job security)
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