Continuing The Bigotry

Captain's Quarters Blog ^ | 06/10/07 | Ed Morrisey

[nowandlater]

Well, interesting, it looks like you are conversant in the Book of Mormon. If you notice, according to those verses, once we enter the eternal world, then for the wicked there is no turning back.

Is this at exactly at the time of death?

In my opinion, it is the day of Final Judgement when we are resurrected back into our physical bodies. Until the day of Final Judgement, we have a probationary period in which Jesus Christ offers himself as the sole mediator of ALL worlds, ALL people, and ALL of Heaven to as the Book of Mormon says:

Helaman 3:27 Thus we may see that the Lord is merciful unto all who will, in the sincerity of their hearts, call upon his holy name.
28 Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto ball, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.
29 Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall cdivide sunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil, and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked—
30 And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out.

Notice, the above verses says a few things. Christ’s Atonement overcomes an everlasting gulf. Therefore the sacfrice of Jesus has everlasting properties. It bridges the gulf between God and Man. It puts one in the presence of God. It also places the righteous at the right hand of God which many scriptures allude to as a place of honor, and as place to govern under God (see Revelations as an example) as a Joint heir with Christ. And finally, this verse relates to man’s soul as immortal, in a fashion it is immortal like God’s. Is it of God’s quality? No not even close, but it is through Jesus that it does achieve that So then, what is the place of man in God’s universe? Well, it is for the righteous to be placed within his bossom and to have a place in his kingdom at his right hand.

[Elsie]

Funny, that's what the mobs said when they killed Joseph and Hyrum.

Do you have any documentation for this assertion?

[Asclepius]

As an observant Jew, how do you feel about the fabrications Joe Smith made to Torah? Regardless of the parsing NAL offers to do on the verses added by Smith, what is the Jewish verdict of such additions to Torah ‘in these latter days?’

You really can't add anything to the Torah. The Torah is just the first 5 books, what you might call the Pentateuch. As I understand it, all the rest of the Tanakh, what you might call the old testiment, is commentary, of fairly equal rank to other commentaries (Mishna, Talmud etc). (We really don't have a cannon; what we have are texts that are accepted by tradition to varying degrees. For example, the Zoharic sages accept the Davidic Psalms as of almost equal value to Torah.) What happened at Sinai is the seminal event; the testimonies of every other generation since, whether prophets, sages, or rabbis, reduces to meditation, interpretation, and commentary on that event, trying to make sense of it, trying to figure out how to live our lives in light of it etc. So I'm not sure the Jews even have a verdict on Mormonism any more than they would have a verdict of any other gentile faith or tradition. I think the sages and rabbis would simply say that it isn't Jewish and leave it at that.

This would be my principle: can you keep all the mitzvot and not be a Jew? Yes. Of course. By extension, can you e.g. believe in Jesus and not be a Christian as it is articulated in the creeds and cannons? Yes. E.g. gnostics, Ebionites. This is not a slam against gnostics, Ebionites, or Mormons. Christians accept, in their own way and according to their own interpretation, the Mosaic law and tradition. But are Christians Jews? No, certainly not. So too the Mormons. They accept, in their own way and according to their own interpretation, the source texts of normative Christianity. But are they Christians? IMHO no, they are not. This doesn't mean that a Mormon should not be president or that Mormons are not going to heaven or anything like that. It just means that the one is not the other. All the rest would be commentary.

[Elsie]

I think it’s interesting how the anti-Mormon conservatives are in bed with the anti-Christian liberals. Very interesting.

Dang!

Sounds like I'd be interested in hereing this!!

Come on: post some stuff that shows how we are alike.

[Elsie]

I have asked questions about the so far unproven opinions concerning the “heresies” you claim against Mormons.

Is this a ONE way street??

Will you now...

...asked questions about the so far unproven opinions concerning the “heresies” the LDS members claim against Christianity?

[Elsie]

The KFD shows something else.

Indeed!

It 'shows' that Moroni 8:18 was NOT believed, yet, it wasn't challenged by 'believing' Mormons!

[Elsie]

Please don’t call me a liar and make a mockery of my testimony of Christ.

Is this a yes or a no??

[Elsie]

He/she/it started this crap, not me, and it’s just tit for tat.

So much for turning the other cheek!

[Elsie]

Or am I expected to take his/her/its horse dump lying down?

depends on what you 'believe', I guess...

[Elsie]

Well, there are few things debated in Mormon theology, so my ideas are my own.

Why not?

Are you expected to just take whatever headquarters publishes??

[Elsie]

Do you see any racism/bigotry in those passages?

Phooey on those: what about poor, ol' Emma??

 

---

 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

 

  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true

 

 

  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Quit posting our output!

Don’t you know you’ll create doubt in some people?!?!?

—MormonDude

[Elsie]

I thought we were talking about the bigotry of the Mormon bashers and the alleged heresy of the Mormons.

Exactly!!

Uh...

I think that's what the references addressed...

[Elsie]

Quick!

Answer these before we answer you!!

[Osage Orange]

Catholics are not Mormons.

Exactly..

Different as night and day.

[Elsie]

Racism has plagued humans from the very beginning of time until now.

Now??

Are we so enlightened NOW??

[Osage Orange]

FOF...pretty much explained it to you.

Maybe you're in over your depth....friend.

FWIW-

[Elsie]

But are Christians Jews? No, certainly not.

Some are; and the rest of us may disagree... ;^)

 

 Romans 11:1-22
   1.  I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
   2.  God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:
   3.  "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ?
   4.  And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
   5.  So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
   6.  And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
   7.  What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
   8.  as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
   9.  And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
 10.  May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
 11.  Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
 12.  But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
 13.  I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
 14.  in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
 15.  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
 16.  If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
 17.  If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
 18.  do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
 19.  You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
 20.  Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
 21.  For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

 

 

 Galatians 3:28
   There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[ComeUpHigher]

I thought you were bright enough to recognize a rhetorical question. If the answer isn’t apparent enough in the rhetorical question and the accompanying Biblical scriptures, let me state in plainly: Before you scrutinize and criticize the text of the Book of Mormon for its perceived racism/bigotry perhaps you should scrutinize the Bible using the same standard you seek to apply to the Book of Mormon. Is that plain enough for you?

[Asclepius]

But are Christians Jews? No, certainly not.

Some are;

I happily accept your correction. Yes: some Jews are Christians.