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To: apro
Gee, seems like an awful lot of people bothered to write about something that never happened. You know what this sounds like? A bunch of apologists who want to whitewash Sparta's history by condemning pederasty. But the very fact that they're taking such effort to condemn indicates that it was an integral part of the Spartan agogi.

You seriously want me to believe that these men, thrown into an all-male group from the age of seven and segregated from the opposite sex until their late 20s, were somehow heterosexual? Give me a break. It was homo city all the way. Just look at our prisons today - except worse, because they're thrown in as kids, and it's the entire male population of the country! Don't buy the apologists' propaganda.
9 posted on 03/20/2007 7:42:54 PM PDT by billybudd
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To: billybudd
Ancient Greeks also had laws against murder, stealing, treason, etc, and just as many passages that speak about these laws, I hope you are not implying ancient Greeks were accepted of these behaviors at one time and created laws against murder, stealing, treason etc only after the fact. Because that is how this ridiculous claim, that I have heard others use, sounds as. The very fact that we have statements from the ancient Greeks that show a detest they held for such action shows us exactly the opposite of what some have claimed. Sure there are texts that may imply some isolated incidents but there is no single text that would indicate anything other then repulsion and ridicule towards those who chose this lifestyle.

The laws of Aeschynes are an oration in front of a jury and speaks of many of their laws in that oration, including an incident of a "good father" who locked his daughter away because she had sex before she married. As this shows, people breaking the laws was not unheard of but the consequences that followed individuals who broke these laws were severe. Demosthenes tell us these laws were in place during Solon's time, hundreds of years before hand, they were a measure of precaution not an indication of some form of an outburst. Spartans laws dating just as back if not further. To an individual who is not familiar with ancient Greek anthology, s/he will approach these texts with a 21st conception and logic because s/he ignores the language due to restricted translations and non familiarity with the culture, the traditions and the customs of the people in question. So I hear all these posters claiming "its a fact homosexuality was accepted", "its a fact ancient Greeks had sexual relations with boys", "its a fact they 'butt-xxxx' each other", but what the reality is those are not facts because they ignore the significance of laws, plays, historical origins and other literature which prove that such behavior was not the norm based upon the general population. They also ignore the significance what this ancient society as a whole has told us such as of the Laios myth or what take places in plays of Aristophanis, Euripides, Sophokles and Aeschylus which places these negative views well into the Mycenean era, or Aesop's tale of 'Aidos'. Hellenic history can not be understood just from a few translations one might read or a class one takes one semester. There is too much information and it has to be correctly put into context for people to comprehend the events attempted to be discussed. When one understands ancient Greek society as a whole then it very clear from the sources, the laws, the plays, the speeches, tales themselves indicates that these negative views were actually the true cultural norm and the public opinion even centuries prior to Lycurgus or Solon.

The fact that these passages exist indicates that the claim of acceptance of such activity is false. So while such activities might have taken place with a small number of individuals and will continue to take place through out the world and in every society, in ancient Greece it was never considered acceptable nor something that was not preformed without fear of being uncovered and punished harshly.

Oh and Spartans weren't told they couldn't have sex with women until they turned 30, nor did they not have connact with females until then. What they were told was that they couldn't MARRY until they were 30 years old. There were plenty of female camp followers and female captives or female prostitutes around so they didn't go without sex with females. Unless you seriously believe that homosexual activities are also running ramped amongst modern day military too since its an all male enviroment.

The evidence that most ancient Greek sources proves such behavior was not acceptable in ancient Greek society and it scanned view points held in various different time periods through out the ancient Greek world including the Mycenean era and its all based upon what the ancient Greeks view on this was. But certain modern 'scholars' who try to push this myth forward have offered no evidence that pedestry was an acceptable behavior other then their own personal opinions and misinterpretations of historical facts and we are suppose to believe that as "facts"? I don't think so. The evidence that I am going to rely on will be what the ancient Greeks themselves say about the matter and not certain modern 'scholars' with agendas to push and they do have agendas to push. I suggest looking into the Colorado Amendment 2 Case regarding one "Professor Nussbaum" that shows at what extent these individuals would go to alter historical facts to fit their agendas.

10 posted on 03/21/2007 7:10:28 AM PDT by apro
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To: billybudd
And exactly where did all the little Spartan's come from? The 300 Leonidas picked were all men who had already fathered sons.

Read a book. Seriously...

12 posted on 03/21/2007 7:53:21 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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