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Actress Brooke Shields kills 140 of her very own Children by undergoing 7 IVF Treatments
Various | 07.25.04

Posted on 07/25/2004 10:03:03 PM PDT by Coleus

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To: TradicalRC
From your about page you describe yourself as a "Traditional Roman Catholic, Conservative Anarchist". Besides suffering a serious case of projection, shared by your Talaban Cabal cronies, I believe you pretty much support my claim of fanaticism.

The negative responses of you and your "loving, peaceful and caring" friends have been duly noted and saved for future reference.
121 posted on 07/26/2004 12:23:38 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberalism is a Hate Crime)
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To: Askel5

Do you believe it was God's will that a man and wife be incapable of bearing children?

Let's face it, God's original plan was corrupted long ago.


122 posted on 07/26/2004 12:27:01 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Fox News is Fair and Balanced. Move-on.org is Bare and Imbalanced.)
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To: Petronski; ThomasMore; johnb2004; jwalsh07
Guys, you are trying to make a subjective judgment about what has a sufficient degree of humanness to warrant the protection of the law, and just how much one should equate potential and actual when making such an evaluation, into an objective claim. That can't be done, and just repeating over and over again, your same arguments, is a waste of bandwidth. I'm done.

I know Petronski you didn't say any of the above, but heck, I hit the reply button to your post anyway. Jwalsh07 is not here at all of course, but I always like to ping him when I go over to the dark side.

123 posted on 07/26/2004 12:31:52 PM PDT by Torie
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To: drstevej
IVF was recommended to us again and again throughout our attempts to get pregnant (punctuated by 4 miscarriages).

We never did it because we had moral objections to it and we knew that there were millions of children (already born) that needed parents.

We are so happy that we choose adoption instead.

124 posted on 07/26/2004 12:33:40 PM PDT by Artist (a thankful mom)
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To: Torie

I know you've said you're done, and I won't respect a response, nor is it my intent to egg you on.

I'll merely point out that either there is some ascertainable standard, some fixed point in time, when human life begins, or it is a moveable event. And if it is a moveable event, we had all better be wary about who is empowered to do the 'moving' of that event.


125 posted on 07/26/2004 12:35:46 PM PDT by Petronski (BOSTON TRUTH SQUAD: DemsExtremeMakeover.com)
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Comment #126 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie; ThomasMore; Coleus

Some people think that rape and plunder are okay during times of war. Some religions teach that various classes of people can be reduced legally to servitude, or that it is okay to marry multiple wives.

Shall we rescind our laws in these areas since some people claim they are subjective from their point of view?

Scientifically, there is nothing to tell us that a fertilized ovum is not a new human being. It has human DNA, so it is certainly not a fish or a tree; it is living, so it isn't a rock or a blob of protein, and it is not alike to the woman within whose body it resides, so it is not part of the mother. Everything we can empirically see about it says it is a seperate human being - merely at a different stage of development than you or I.

The real subjective judgement seems to me to be able to claim there is some time where a fine line can be drawn on a human life where we say this side of it has legal protections while that side of it does not.

It is telling regarding liberalism and the abortion ideology that human corpses are treated with greater respect and given more legal protection than live unborn humans inside their mother's wombs.

You can be thrown in jail for dismembering a corpse, but you will be applauded as a progressive visionary for dismembering a baby in the womb.


127 posted on 07/26/2004 12:42:02 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Torie
Subjective? What is a human human embryo? An ostrich? A stapler? It is a person. At one time, you were an embryo.

You are the one being subjective. You are the one deciding what a human is and when a person-hood is conveyed.
128 posted on 07/26/2004 12:59:47 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: Askel5; Corin Stormhands
=== To me it seems irrational to think that God would damn people for eternity for seeking to start a viable life by these means...

Simply because they are a rejection of God's will, God's plan and exclude the Creator absolutely?

If God is the one who creates the souls, how is any soul created that is ~not~ his will?

This is an honest question from someone who has a hard time understanding why evil is often successful.... Why innocents are allowed to suffer. I can accept to a certain degree that God has more of a 'hands off' approach than I would wish regarding what His creations ~do~ in life, but I'd have to think if He is really sovereign, then NO ONE could create a life that was outside His will. If it ~is~ done, doesn't it go without saying that it is His will being done?

129 posted on 07/26/2004 1:02:13 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog (~*-,._.,-*~Loves her hubbit~*-,._.,-*~)
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To: HairOfTheDog
God has an ordaining will and a permitting will. He does not interfere with our free will.
130 posted on 07/26/2004 1:17:49 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: PA Engineer

Again, I am for protecting unborn children, you think disposing of them as garbage is okay. How is it that you can convince yourself that it is I and not you who is the fanatic?


131 posted on 07/26/2004 1:23:11 PM PDT by TradicalRC (From big government conservatives, good Lord deliver us.)
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To: johnb2004

Our free will after creation is one issue people grapple with. Creation of a new person is another. If all people have a soul, then doesn't creation of a new person require God? Alternatives: We do not have a soul till God puts it there, We can create souls independent of God's will (where does it come from in that case, and is it still sacred?) OR God creates the soul, so nothing lives unless he wills it.


132 posted on 07/26/2004 1:24:31 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog (~*-,._.,-*~Loves her hubbit~*-,._.,-*~)
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To: HairOfTheDog

All humans have souls. God gives them a soul. If someone wants to create a life while shutting out God, that does not mean God does not infuse a soul. It means the persons involved have said to God they wish to be a god as well. It violates the first commandment.

"If all people have a soul, then doesn't creation of a new person require God?"

Yes.

"We can create souls independent of God's will"

Nope, only God creates a soul.

"God creates the soul, so nothing lives unless he wills it."

Yep. Remember, God has an ordaining will and a permitting will.


133 posted on 07/26/2004 1:33:05 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: johnb2004

Thanks for your input. I think we'd be foolish to claim to be able to explain these concepts so easily.


134 posted on 07/26/2004 1:37:19 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog (~*-,._.,-*~Loves her hubbit~*-,._.,-*~)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Is a day-old embryo a human baby or not?

A human egg in a petri dish is just that.

135 posted on 07/26/2004 1:40:49 PM PDT by South40 (Amnesty for ILLEGALS is a slap in the face to the USBP!)
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To: Coleus

IVF would be morally acceptable if they'd only fertilize one egg at a time.


136 posted on 07/26/2004 1:43:09 PM PDT by Sloth (We have to support RINOs like Specter; their states are too liberal to elect someone like Santorum.)
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To: HairOfTheDog

The point is God does allow evil. He will not interfere with our free will, even if we commit evil. God's permitting will allows all types of suffering and evil. Why? Because we choose evil over good many times.

If God did not allow us free will, we would not truly be able to love Him. We would be mere robots.


137 posted on 07/26/2004 1:43:56 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: South40

Egg does not equal embryo.


138 posted on 07/26/2004 1:44:56 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: Sloth

No, it would not. It would still be intrinsically evil. Many want to separate love and reproduction.


139 posted on 07/26/2004 1:46:34 PM PDT by johnb2004
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To: South40; Hermann the Cherusker

Is a day-old embryo a human baby or not? >>
A human egg in a petri dish is just that.>>>

You are confusing a 23 chromosome haploid cell (egg) vs. a 46 chromosome diploid, new human embryo (human child as we all once were when created), there is a big difference.


140 posted on 07/26/2004 1:51:20 PM PDT by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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