Posted on 07/24/2003 1:55:39 PM PDT by Mr.Atos
I was just lisening to Medved debating Creationism with Athiests on the air. I found it interesting that while Medved argued his side quite effectively from the standpoint of faith, his opponents resorted to condescension and beliitled him with statements like, "when it rains, is that God crying?" I was reminded of the best (at least most amusing)debate that I have ever heard on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution, albeit a fictional setting. It occurred on the show, Friends of all places between the characters Pheobe (The Hippy) and Ross (The Paleontologist). It went like this...
Pheebs: Okay...it's very faint, but I can still sense him in the building...GO INTO THE LIGHT MR. HECKLES!!
Ross: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, uh, you don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: Nah. Not really. Ross: You don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: I don't know. It's just, ya know, monkeys, Darwin, ya know, it's a, it's a nice story. I just think it's a little too easy.
Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact. Like, like, the air we breathe, like gravity... Pheebs: Uh, okay, don't get me started on gravity.
Ross: You uh, you don't believe in gravity? Pheebs: Well, it's not so much that ya know, like I don't *believe* in it, ya know. It's just...I don't know. Lately I get the feeling that I'm not so much being pulled down, as I am being pushed.
Ross: How can you NOT BELIEVE in evolution? Pheebs: [shrugs] I unh-huh...Look at this funky shirt!!
Ross: Well, there ya go. Pheebs: Huh. So now, the REAL question is: who put those fossils there, and why...?
Ross: OPPOSABLE THUMBS!! Without evolution, how do YOU explain OPPOSABLE THUMBS?!? Pheebs: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts!
Pheebs: Uh-oh! Scary Scientist Man!
Pheebs: Okay, Ross? Could you just open your mind like, *this* much?? Okay? Now wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat? And up until what, like, fifty years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess o' crap came out! Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny, tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?!?
Pheebs: I can't believe you caved. Ross: What? Pheebs: You just ABANDONED your whole belief system! I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. Ross: But uh.. Pheebs: Yeah...how...how are you gonna go in to work tomorrow? How...how are you gonna face the other science guys? How...how are you gonna face yourself? Oh! [Ross runs away dejected] Pheebs: That was fun. So who's hungry?
Well, I haven't been following this thread, but everything counts for something, I suppose.
Sure. Whether it was overall a positive or negative influence is not an easy question. You weigh Thomas Aquinas and Blaise Pascal on on side, the Thirty Years War on the other....
philosophical notions that contributed to defining the primacy of individual existences as ultimately manifested in the Constitution (The pinnacle document in human civilization) were not possible in absense of Christian tradition.
Hmmm. That's a 'what if'. What if Greco-Roman civilization had been uninfluenced by Christianity? Hard to say. To what extent was the philosophy of the enlightenment an outgrowth of Christian tradition, and to what extent an antithesis? Were the Founding Fathers acting in that tradition, or were they shedding it in the essence and holding on only to the superficialities? And what if Christian tradition had never been there at all? I consider this point to be unproven.
The defense called numerous scientific witnesses. The prosecution objected. The judge didn't let them testify. Who would you say was cowardly?
No way ... separation (( YES )) of ideology - religion - whacks --- not God !
Something we all should consider is the founding fathers did not escape tyranny to perpetuate another tyranny - MONPOLY ... we were founded upon God AND religious liberty and defending it is our obligation --- EVO liberals have made God and right and wrong - freedom - speech a thought crime and themselves ACLU whacks evolution NAZIS - our overlords - us slaves !
Watch those senate confirmation hearings and if you publicly state your beliefs and sincerity you are vetted - crucified ... there is supposed to be no religious - ideological special interest test or PLEDGE for office and now the supreme court has established a liberal CARTEL - clergy - priesthood ... abortion - pornography - evolution ONLY monopoly ? - gun control - racial - sexual preferences especially !
81 posted on 07/25/2003 3:15 PM CDT by Right Wing Professor http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/952079/posts?page=81#81
Sounds like you already do.
RINO ALERT!
I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me for saying this, Professor, BUT -- Dennett's/Dawkins' hateful political ideology is perfectly "cognate" with materialist theory in general, and Darwinist theory in particular, on all principal points.
If you doubt me on this, then perhaps that only means you aren't paying attention "to the details" -- of the theory itself, or of the socio/cultural ramifications/purposes to which "expert science" is being subjected, and which are playing out in quite alarming ways, these days.
For what it's worth, guy.... I do wish you well in all things.
Christianity has found itself quite compatible with slavery as well as the anti-slavery movement; with marxism and with conservatism; with polygamy and with celibacy. The lesson, it seems, is that religion, which makes ethical statements, really is orthogonal to political philosophy; all the more reason why science, which makes no such statements, is even less coupled to any particular brand of politics.
How do you keep an idiot is suspense?
Right. The problem with Stalin's evolution was that they tried to use bequeathal of acquired characteristics, which is the point of education and tradition in society, as some kind of effective tool in the bio-inheritance world. That was the problem, why the process fails, it's being used to measure a phenomenon of a different axis, maybe orthogonal or not, but a different axis. Maybe Stalin knew that, who can say, but many others would not get it.
Those who are into evolution are fascinated with lower life forms.
Dear RWP, it appears you have chosen to resort to "cheap debating points" rather than directly engage the issue I raised. IMO, one doesn't clarify debating points by resorting to the tactics of "moral equivalency" where such do not apply/obtain. The argument is clear enough, as long as you don't "smoooodge it" with too much irrelevancy.
Just to restate it: "Dennett's/Dawkins' hateful political ideology is perfectly "cognate" with materialist theory in general, and Darwinist theory in particular, on all principal points."
Please don't run a whole of "spun history" by me here. Just refute the proposition, if you can.
Your classification ignores the vast number of people who believe in God, and still accept the theory of evolution as good science.
As it stands, it's an unsupported assertion, and one that begs way too many questions:
BTW, I will post the Dennett article, when I get time.
LOL, RWP!!! Maybe that's the reason I invited you here, to just "knock it all down!" (Which you chose not to do at this time, I gather.)
I'm all up for "a caucus of bright FReepers" to deliberate this question. What forum could conduce to that end? That wouldn't end up with the main argument of debate being hauled, kicking and screaming, into the Smokey Back Room -- hardly a serious archive of "serious thought" here, or anywhere else?...
I'm always looking forward to anything new from Dennett. He seems to make sense about a lot of things, often enough. (But I still "lose him" on grounds of logic, reason, experience, world view in the longer run....)
I'm looking forward to anything of his you wish to post here, RWP. (I'm sure I'd find some way to have "fun with it," one way or another....)
Good night, and thanks in advance!
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