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To: PatrickHenry; BMCDA; general_re; Diamond; CCWoody; Nebullis; cornelis; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Others see what exists; you "see" whatever you want to see.

You are correct insofar as you are just pointing out that people believe only what they want to believe. This is a patently obvious truth of human nature. (It is one of the undergirding principles of the historic Protestant theology of Calvinism. [Like the vast majority of our nation's founders, the real Patrick Henry was a Calvinist--as I am, of course.])

Having agreed with you that people believe only what they want to believe, let me point out that this comment does not enhance your case at all (despite the fact that you evidently intended your remark as a disparagement of mine).

Let me show you why I say that (below).

***

Notice, first of all, that you used the word see in two different ways. You said "Others see what exists." Next, you put the word see in quotation marks, saying "You 'see' whatever you want to see."

But now, notice that you have implied in your first statement that a Creator does not exist. Ah, but but you are merely presupposing that a Creator who cannot be seen rather directly with the eyes does not exist. (This is intellectually untenable inasmuch as the Creator of the material world was obviously not material. Besides, as you surely realize at some level of your soul, the atheist can't possibly know what he asserts--i.e., that there is no God!--because only God could have that kind of knowledge. So, I will insist that you leave off implying that God does not exist. I want you to be more reasonable.)

Anyway, as I suggested in my earlier post, I see everything which you see in nature. To use your language, I do see "what exists." But if I am correct about the existence of the Creator (and of course, I am [grin]), then you are the one who doesn't fully see what exists.

You will notice that I am using the word see in the same dual way you were using it. As we both realize, there are two kinds of seeing. The first kind of seeing is sensory. The second kind of seeing is an apprehension which may go beyond the purely sensory level; this kind of seeing involves the understanding of things (including the implications of sensory data!).

An example of this latter type of seeing is "Oh, I see what you are saying now." What we mean by such a statement is actually "I understand and accept the truth which you were presenting."

That brings us back to the topic of the thread. Some of us see things which you cannot see about the existence of the Creator, the Designer. Some of us can SEE it QUITE EASILY.

The whole thing is wonderfully strange, IMHO. And if you will pardon a little teasing, those of us who do regard the fact of the Creator's existence as transcendentally obvious are inclined to regard you as mentally defective.

In short, the fact that you and I both understand and accept only what we want to understand and accept is ultimately why I believe in a Creator and you don't. I see everything which you can see, but I can see things which exist beyond your willingness to understand and accept the truths of the Creation..

In short, I say there is no weakness in me. I would have to say that I am just more reasonable than you are. (This is what I actually meant when I suggested that you are mentally defective [grin again].)

***

All of this stuff is covered in Romans 1:18-32.

53 posted on 03/04/2003 8:44:53 PM PST by the_doc
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To: the_doc; Diamond
I "see". Thanks for the ping.

Here's another thing I "see"; an irreducibly complex system.
54 posted on 03/04/2003 8:58:10 PM PST by CCWoody
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To: the_doc
Notice, first of all, that you used the word see in two different ways. You said "Others see what exists." Next, you put the word see in quotation marks, saying "You 'see' whatever you want to see."

But now, notice that you have implied in your first statement that a Creator does not exist.

The conclusion that "a Creator does not exist" logically follows from the statement that "others see what exists"?

I think not.

56 posted on 03/04/2003 9:59:14 PM PST by general_re (Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.)
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To: the_doc; Diamond
Perhaps it is inherently intuitive for man to see what is design and what is not, but that does not excuse the fact that no algorithm can be created such that design will be seen in every single case.

Unless an algorithm can be made, and a deterministic Turing machine created out of that algorithm, the concept of design remains a subjective property which only humans can judge, like the concept of beauty.

Additionally, I would like to ask you and Diamond: If God created everything, then what is not designed? Admitting that a water crystal has no design is tantamount to saying the Lord had no hand in shaping water's very unique properties.
63 posted on 03/05/2003 7:24:32 AM PST by Nataku X (Never give Bush any power you wouldn't want to give to Hillary.)
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