[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your post!

I said: I take hope in the passages in Romans and John which speak of God's mercy to those who didn't know better. Because of those passages, I wonder if willfulness will factor in the judgment somehow.

You said: I'm not aware of this; would like to see those references. I am aware of Romans 2:15,16, which to me seems to imply that the conscience of some will demonstrate that they acted in humble faith, regarding what little knowledge of God they had (being submitted to it in their hearts).

Here are the passages I was remembering, from John and Romans:

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. – John 15:22-24

(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) - Romans 2:13-15

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. – Romans 4:15

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. – Romans 5:13

I take all of this to mean that people who have heard of Christ will be judged by that standard, people who have not heard of Christ but have heard of the Mosaic law, will be judged by that standard and that people who have heard of neither will either be judged by the law written in their own heart or will be excused (have a cloak for their sin.)

Earlier still in Romans, without 'cheating' and looking now, I believe we have mention of creation itself telling us of God, which lo and behold, brings my face back to the subject of this thread!

When I meditate on the creation, it always strikes me that the objects of creation do what they are compelled to do: waves/forces, particles, galaxies, stars, winds, water, plants, animals – etc. They are driven by physical laws, environment and their own nature. Out of everything in the physical realm, man seems singularly prone to act willfully, sometimes self-serving and sometimes self-sacrificing. It is disturbing to imagine a physical realm where all plants and animals could act so willfully…

Here is a very interesting pdf document where the big bang is explored as proof of the existence of God.

[unspun]

Thanks for devotion applied in this response, A-G.

(BTW, is Romans 2:16 describing when the accusing and excusing happens, or just when Jesus judges it? ;-)

I track with you. So, it seems here that the extremity of extended mercy applied for the excuse of the most ignorant heart would be understood by answering the questions of what a cloak is and what it will do for one, in God's intently loving eyes, eh? But while I don't know the language John 15:22 is written in, I see "cloak" simply translated "excuse" in NIV, NASB, Amp., which would make my prior statement circular. Hmm.

So, I'm left to read a simpler v22 in two contexts: the first being the context of all the other Scripture, and the second being the context of Jesus' conversation with his hearers. In the first context, I'll be informed the what is critical is our response to God's revelation. In the second context, I'll be informed that the sin Jesus most refers to here is choosing to hate Jesus (and His disciples along with Him) -- chosing to be offended by God, instead of taking to heart that He tells them they are sinners in need of mercy.

So when Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." I tend to think that, thoroughgoing Person that Jesus is, He is referring to the whole revelation that Jesus always has been to man. Afterall, He was The Word breathed by God, even before The Word got to Mary for flesh and "it is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding" (Job 32:8) whenever in history, a man's feet are on the earth (and until his feet become just a part of the earth).

So yeah, no mystery, it seems to me, when it comes to man; his willing response of accepting God's truth about Himself (and himself) is required, however Jesus is witnessed (which varies from person to person, though He does not).

PEOPLE, ACCEPT: THAT GOD IS GOD, AND YOU AREN'T; THAT HE IS GOOD, AND YOU AREN'T; THAT HE HAS CHOSEN A MATERIAL WAY TO RECOVER YOU, AND YOU ARE.

And all this will culminate, "on the day when, according to my good news, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus" (Romans 2:16) having already made God no secret to men.