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To: exmarine
Logic is all we have.

Apparently faith trumps logic, else you are left with the proposition that God, who is something, came from nothing. There is nothing in logic to distinguish between the assertion that the universe exists independently of space and time, and that God does so.

Your assertions about God are based entirely on your assertions. There are thousands of contrary assertions of faith.

5,177 posted on 01/16/2003 8:46:02 AM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Apparently faith trumps logic

Obviously, my faith is based upon reasonable evidence, therefore it is logical. One must reason in his mind before he chooses to believe in God. Please give me your basis for saying faith and reason are mutually exclusive. This gulf between reason and faith began with Kierkegaard who assigned faith to a non-rational category thereby creating the split with reason. As I have stated on this thread several times now, Christians have made most of the biggest scientific discoveries, and they were able to do so because they believed in a "reasonable God" who created an "ordered" universe - they understood the big picture. Obviously then, faith and reason are absolutely compatible. J. Robert Oppenheimer and Whitehead have both said that Christian worldview was key to the amazing scientific discoveries of the 17th and 18th centuries.

5,184 posted on 01/16/2003 9:07:28 AM PST by exmarine
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To: js1138
else you are left with the proposition that God, who is something, came from nothing. There is nothing in logic to distinguish between the assertion that the universe exists independently of space and time, and that God does so.

As I have said, without an infinite reference point, you (in the words of your hero JW Gould), are no more significant than a "dried twig." That would make you and all the rest of humanity a big fat zero. So, you see, your faith is much more fantastic than mine. You believe there is no God (that is a faith choice on your part), therfore, you must deny the mannishness of man.

Tell you what - when you see your family today, I will expect you to be true to your atheistic naturalistic materialistic worldview by taking the correct perspective on your family. You should not think any of them have any value becuase they don't - they are mere dried twigs; and that love you feel for them -that us just your materialistic brain reacting to some random stimulus - it's not real and it has no meaning or significance. You live a hopeless dichotomy every day of your life.

5,187 posted on 01/16/2003 9:19:12 AM PST by exmarine
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To: js1138
Apparently faith trumps logic, else you are left with the proposition that God, who is something, came from nothing.

Every scientifically known evidence tells us that nothing comes from nothing. Even energy is conserved. So as far as science goes the source of the Universe is unexplainable by science. So your claim is more incorrect than the Christian one. Science itself tells us that the answer must lie outside of science. It is therefore both more scientifically and logically legitimate to say that the Universe arose as a result of something outside the material realm. We call this Creator of everything we see God.

5,284 posted on 01/16/2003 7:20:46 PM PST by gore3000
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