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To: B. Rabbit; exmarine
If morals are absolute as you say, what is their source? A universal moral precept cannot simply exist without a source - this is a non-rational view; the precept "all men are created equal" does not have extension in space. How do you explain the existence of this and other universal non-material realities outside of God? -ExM

The source of morality (and liberty as a moral code) is self-evident (too cliche?). Ok, then think of it as this: Freedom, and the morality behind the right to be free, is my God. Until another shows to be more powerful, more right, or more just, this is what I believe. 4097 -B. Rabbit-

This is not an adequate explanation. Our nation's founders recognized that the truths are self-evident because we have been endowed with them by our Creator.
The wonderful objective right for personal FREEDOM cannot just hang in mid-air and be an end unto itself.
This is still non-rational. Logically speaking, without an infinite reference point (God), there is no basis for believing absolute moral truths exist on their own - out of nothing and residing nowhere in particular.
What would stop someone like Stalin from rejecting your exaltation of freedom and throwing you in a gulag? Practiically speaking, if freedom does not originate from God, it carries no moral force and has no anchor. 4105 -ExM-

As we see, in bold above, ExM insists that there MUST be a Creator for human rights. -- That men have created their own rights seems to be beyond him.
As you noted, our sense of morality is self-evident, & that all mankind has possessed it is obvious from the presence of the 'golden rule' in all societies, regardless of religion. We all learn this golden rule at our mothers breast, in the form of 'don't bite the tit that feeds you'.

The notion that because some sociopaths like Stalin exist, -- and that therefore we must have a god inspired morality to stop them, -- is the real non-rational view.

Men are perfectly capable of stopping other mens tyranny.

Restoration of our basic constitutional principles, which include guarding against zealous infringements of the 1st, is an excellent method to achive this goal.

4,148 posted on 01/09/2003 10:50:14 AM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
As you noted, our sense of morality is self-evident, & that all mankind has possessed it is obvious from the presence of the 'golden rule' in all societies, regardless of religion.

Normally, I would not respond to you but I will make an exception in this case since you are so wrong. The golden rule does not exist in all societies. It is strictly Christian. YOu might say, "Oh yeah, Confucius said the same thing!" And I will say, "Wrong!" Confucius said that men should NOT do unto others what they DO NOT want done to them. This is a NEGATIVE golden rule and requires NO ACTION on our part. Jesus on the other hand, said, "DO UNTO OTHERS..." This requires loving action. Now, please quote the writer (pre-Christian) who stated the golden rule in the correct context.

4,154 posted on 01/09/2003 10:56:58 AM PST by exmarine
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