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To: longshadow
My concern is that many lay people come to discussions of scienctific issues with "baggage" -- misconceptions of what science is about . . .

Fair enough.

This entire discussion started when "Fester..." made a statement to the effect that the Theory of Evolution (presumeably, the biological one) encompassed not only the origin of species, but also the origin of Life itself, and (worse still) the origin and development of the Universe.

Exactly

This is the worst sort of baggage to bring to a discussion of scientific issues,

OK

If we come to the table with different ideas about what the words (like "evolution") mean, we can't make many progress. That's why the adage is: "first, define your terms."

I agree

For scientists, and people knowledgeable in scientific matters, that's already taken care of by the education or reading they've done.

So what exactly does Dawkins mean when he says "Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design?" And when did he join the creationist conspiracy?

Now the grammar:

Apositive: A word, phrase, or clause that has the same referent and the same or a similar grammatical function as a preceding word or phrase

That's a good definition of apositive. Keep it in mind as I continue.

The phrase

"Evolution, the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today, is the central organizing principle of the historical sciences -- biology, geology, and cosmology"

"Evolution" is the noun. A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea

"the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today" is an adjective clause. This is a clause which acts as an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words

Now does an adjective and a noun have the same grammatical function?

3,912 posted on 01/08/2003 4:41:07 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7
The statement in question:

"Evolution, the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today, is the central organizing principle of the historical sciences -- biology, geology, and cosmology"

Tribune7: "Evolution" is the noun. A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea

"the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today" is an adjective clause. This is a clause which acts as an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words

If what you say is true, the the "sequence of events" phrase could be used in the same way as an adjective. For example in the phrase "biological evolution," "biological" is the adjective modifying "evolution," the noun. The statement in question is not structured like that. The "squence of events" phrase is equivallent to the word "evolution," not dependent on it.

Now don't you think you've tortured the English language enough for now?

3,921 posted on 01/08/2003 5:13:56 PM PST by Condorman ("Trouble with grammar, have I? Yes!" -- Yoda)
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To: Tribune7
So what exactly does Dawkins mean when he says "Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design?"

Asked and answered a couple days ago. You can look it up; it's in your "replies" queue. Suffice to say, it isn't what YOU think he means.

And when did he join the creationist conspiracy?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Now the grammar:

Apositive: A word, phrase, or clause that has the same referent and the same or a similar grammatical function as a preceding word or phrase

That's a good definition of apositive. Keep it in mind as I continue.

The phrase

"Evolution, the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today, is the central organizing principle of the historical sciences -- biology, geology, and cosmology"

"Evolution" is the noun. A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea

"the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today" is an adjective clause. This is a clause which acts as an adjective. An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words

No. It is not an adjective clause. Clauses have predicates, and that has no predicate being acted upon by "the sequence of events." I don't have my grammar text with me, but I think the correct term for it is a "noun phrase" (with a somewhat complex prepositional expression appended to it, starting with the words "by which...".)

Now does an adjective and a noun have the same grammatical function?

==========================================

I'll cut straight to the chase. Do you agree that a sentence has to have a subject? Do you further agree that adjectives aren't suitable as subjects?

Okay. According to you, the expression "the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today" is an adjective clause, and you further state it doesn't have the same grammatical function as a noun, and hence, it isn't an appositive in the original sentence. Right?

Remove the noun "evolution" from the sentence. What do you get?

According to you, we should have a subject-less "sentence." But look:

"Evolution, the sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today, is the central organizing principle of the historical sciences -- biology, geology, and cosmology"

"The sequence of events by which the world came to be as we see it today is the central organizing principle of the historical sciences -- biology, geology, and cosmology." [the second comma is removed because by removing the noun to which the appositive refers, we eliminate the appositive and it now TAKES THE SAME GRAMMATICAL PLACE AND FUNCTION AS THE NOUN TO WHICH IT REFERRED.] Amazing; it's a complete sentence, with BOTH a subject, verb, and object! How could that be? Perhaps because the expression "the sequence of events...." is a NOUN PHRASE, and this is can be used in the same grammatical function, as in:

".... and [has] the same or a similar grammatical function as a preceding word or phrase"

as you quoted from the definition at the top of your response to me.

It's an APPOSITIVE.

appositive: A noun or noun phrase that is placed next to another to help explain it.

3,973 posted on 01/08/2003 7:22:33 PM PST by longshadow
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