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To: exmarine
This statement itself is an OBJECTIVE statement (making universal claims about values) and is self-refuting and self-stultifiying. If values are subjective, you can make no objective claims about them without contradicting yourself.

How is it self-refuting? One can make all sorts of objective observations about subjective things -- otherwise, how would one determine if another's opinions were worth the paper they were printed upon? Or, as another example one can objectively determine the effects of a particular value judgement on a system through experimentation or observation. One can even statistically compile the subjective opinions of a subject from a number of people and draw an objective conclusion from the numbers. Of course, one can also make subjective claims about objective properties -- i.e., "I don't like people shorter than 1.2 meters tall."

3,453 posted on 01/07/2003 11:01:30 AM PST by Junior (The Catholic Rationalist)
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To: Junior
How is it self-refuting? One can make all sorts of objective observations about subjective things -- otherwise, how would one determine if another's opinions were worth the paper they were printed upon?

What is frustrating is that you can't even see (or admit?) your own illogic. Don't you know what a self-refuting statement is? Here are some examples: "I can't speak of word of english" or "Everything I say is a lie," or "all values or truth is subjective". Think about it awhile and get back to me.

Here again is the bottom line specific to our discussion, and this logic is irrefutable and unassailable. You failed to address it. You are very selective in which of my points you answer. Try addressing this one:

If all is subjective, who cares about your subjective opinion, I have my own and I CAN'T BE WRONG in your system. If it is subjective, then I must be right, and you must be right. Therefore, when I argue that human value is objective, I CAN'T BE WRONG, because in your world, whatever view I hold is right under the rules of subjectivism. Thus, you contradict yourself when you argue the point. All you can do is remain silent - otherwise, you contradict yourself.

3,458 posted on 01/07/2003 11:11:57 AM PST by exmarine
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