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To: viaveritasvita
I hate it that mankind instituted slavery, but I love it that God has (1) given rules for proper treatment of servants...

It would have been just as easy to forbid slavery. And, of course, a slave is not a servant. A slave is property. Do you consider beating another human being to the point where he takes two days to get up "proper treatment". Never mind that this may have been an improvement over previous standards. The discussion began with the assertion that the Bible, and specifically the Old Testament, did not contain obsolete or incorrect information. So are these rules for the treatment of other human beings correct for all time?

1,925 posted on 01/01/2003 1:12:29 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
It would have been just as easy to forbid homosexuality, adultery, greed, hate, you name it. But God's thoughts are not our thoughts, they aren't even in the same ballpark. God gave us free-will; mankind has chosen slavery (also known as bond-servant, especially in the OT, and, yes, both words would imply "property") for whatever reason. Here are two quotes I came across recently that may shed some light:

"This age-old question of 'Why is there suffering?' is as old as time. This question is asked not only by atheists and enemies of God, but also by bewildered Christians staggering under the burden of anguish...[But] If God were to eradicate all evil from this planet, He would have to eradicate all evil men. Who would be exempt? God would rather transform the evil man than eradicate him...If God were to remove all evil from our world (but somehow leave man here), it would mean that the essence of 'humanness' would be destroyed. Man would become a robot...man would lose his distinguishing mark: the ability to make choices. True love is founded upon one's freedom to choose to respond. Man could be programmed to do good, but the element of love would be lost." Billy Graham

Also:

"One says: 'I'd like to ask God why He allows poverty, famine, and injustice whwen He could do something about it.' The other says: 'I'm afraid God might ask me the same question.'" Unknown

Is it not conceivable that there is a master plan toward which all history is moving? Is it not possible that God teaches us all something in the struggle with slavery, poverty, injustice, hate, sexual immorality, etc? Perhaps God's nature and glory are reflected to others when we "do something" about these age-old problems.

Another thing:

"...we have to be fair and say that you have made mistakes which brought you to the place where you are now...we must not act as though God has led you (or me, when I have made a mess of things) into that mess. Yet, it does not mean that the Lord does not care for us when we make a mess of our lives, or that He cannot make something beautiful out of them." Francis A. Schaeffer

>>"Do you consider beating another human being to the point where he takes two days to get up 'proper treatment.'"<<

Said that way and disregarding God's nature as revealed in thousands and thousands of other Biblical verses, no. But you ignore the previous verse that states "If a man beats his slave and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished," and do not take into consideration the culture of that time (see a previous post of mine) not to mention that the fact is in this case the slave is alive! That the Israelites even had rules governing the proper treatment is amazing considering the times. Also, you ignore the fact that the Israelites were a holy nation, set apart from their pagan neighbors -- their behavior, while not perfect, was guided by God. This makes me think that perhaps there were times when punishment (by whatever means and as extremely rare as I believe it was in the Israelite nation) was required. Are you saying that a bondservant could do anything and not be punished? "A punishment too harsh is unfair; one too lenient is powerless to teach." There is much too much here for discussion in this forum!!

>>"Never mind that this may have been an improvement over previous standards."<<

Well, dadgumit!! The one and only time I might consider using the word "evolve" in a discussion with evolutionists, and I'm forbidden! Highly annoying! Here we may actually have a observable and repeatable example of behavior evolving from cruel to...well, less cruel, anyway, and its discussion is pre-empted!!! ARGH!!

This is totally random, but I think it may actually apply for several reasons to the path this thread has taken: I'm willing to bet lots that this is a quote from Ayn Rand (in a short novel, which name I've forgotten) and I'm reaching into memory bank: "That which is not permitted by the government is forbidden." Replace "government" with "God" and you have an idea of His system of governance and of the idea behind free-will (the complete opposite of Rand's quote). God gives us free-will, but it is wise to keep in mind the consequences (good or bad). I'm thinking "That which is not forbidden by God is permitted."

>>"The discussion began with the assertion that the Bible, and specifically the Old Testament, did not contain obsolete or incorrect information. So are these rules for the treatment of other human beings correct for all time?"<<

I honestly don't recall asserting this in exactly those terms, but I do believe the Bible to be the timeless Word of God (including the rules of the treatment of humans, in fact, especially so!). I actually think I made a few comments previously about the possibility that some things would be considered obsolete because of refrigeration and salt...?

Is this the statement to which you refer? If so, I do believe this:

>>"If the Bible was written by men, there would be all sorts of things on every page that made sense at the time but are now shown to be false."<<

PHEW!! I'm really fragmenting here and pooping out quickly -- I truly don't have the time to go into the depth required for this kind of discussion (one of the reasons I rarely post). Suffice to say that you and I have both given each other food for thought and that I wish we could sit down for an hour or two and exchange ideas.

In fact, I appreciate the exchange of ideas with everyone on this thread -- it was envigorating and challenging. Thank you!
1,970 posted on 01/01/2003 4:25:36 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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