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To: Aliska; MistyCA; wirestripper; F16Fighter; B4Ranch; Willie Green; Kenny Bunk; constitution; ...
While part of the problem with illegal immigration is related to the labor markets and American businesses wanting to hire low skilled workers at rates cheaper than those average American workers are willing to accept. Two important issues related to the "big picture" and this aspect of the discussion must be addressed.

First, understanding the problem of labor markets in the US means understanding the interrelationship between, and the interaction of, labor markets with other aspects of the US economy. This understanding is far more complex than suggested in the summary that "all good paying jobs are moving overseas" and America is left with only low paying, low skill jobs. While this may be true for some sectors of industry (particularly with respect to assembly type manufacturing functions), one must take into account American productivity gains and the value of an educated and skilled American workforce. During the 1990s, for example, several foreign car makers from Europe and Japan expanded their manufacturing operations in the US. There are many reasons these companies chose this strategy, including the desire to increase their market share, and to limit their exposure to duties and import fees. However, chief among the reasons these foreign firms moved to the US is because American workers are more productive than their counterparts in Europe or Japan. The point here is that where it comes to manufacturing, the US is not all downside, even though a lot of less-sophisticated manufacturing has moved offshore.

Part of the problem leading to the move of US operations offshore is found in taxation, regulation, and the structure of international trade arrangements. This leads to my second point - that being, the ideas wrapped up in the defeatist attitude, while understandable, do not represent insuperable obstacles to the continued growth and development of the US economy, or to the solution to the problem of illegal immigration. The manufacturing base has left America, and America's successful families (i.e., the one-percent or truly wealthy) are leaving our country because they are being taxed to the point of theft and regulated to the point of harassment. This has become such a problem (i.e., the wealthiest of Americans packing it in for more hospitable climes) that Congress recently enacted legislation to try to discourage people from doing this by making them liable for taxes over ten year period after they have left the country and renounced their citizenship.

America has become inhospitable to the wealthy, to the producers of society, because America is gripped by a form of socialism that comes with it heavy taxation, heavy regulation, disincentives for business, and an anti-business, anti-corporate climate engendered by class politics reminiscent of Marxist orthodoxy. (BTW, I have in the recent past, commented on the state of socialism in America in a post explaining that America's brand of socialism is a.k.a. corporatism.) What makes the problem worse is that politicians use the concept of freedom to conceal their socialist tendencies. The politicians have been so good at concealing socialism in this country by calling it another name, that most Americans, and most people on this forum for that matter, would never even consider our country to be socialist.

This leads to the second issue related to the defeatist attitude expressed by those like Aliska. The defeatist attitude where it comes to illegal immigration stems, in part, from the fact that the problem is multi-dimensional and is rooted in the socialist policies of our government. American socialism stems from the corruption of our political system whereby socialism in our country, while originally an effort solely undertaken by the Democrats, has taken off, as both Democrats and Republicans use their power to muster favor with special interests in the effort to build constituencies and garner votes. It matters little which party individual politicians align themselves, the goal is the same, their re-election and retention of power.

The problem our country faces with respect to illegal immigration is directly related to the advancement of socialism on our shores. Any solution to the illegal immigration problem needs to address the grip that socialism currently has upon our government, economy, and culture.

What can we do?

1) We must recognize what is, and what has been, happening to our country with respect to the rise of socialism in America during the 20th Century.

2) We must vociferously demand tax reduction, reform of the tax system, deregulation, and the restoration of property rights.

3) We must bring an end to the effectiveness of class warfare in politics with the inculcation of the American Dream and the American way of life based on the supremacy of the individual and individual rights, self-reliance, personal responsibility, independence, and freedom.

4) We must advocate adherence to the limitations placed upon government by the Constitution, and we must do so by holding politicians accountable, both in terms of elections and in public relations, when they demonstrate their contempt for the Constitution.

5) We must seek out and elect better leaders by effectively changing the political discourse and taking command of the terms of political debate and the ground upon which political debate occurs.

6) Finally, we must dismantle the welfare state and the government largess of socialism by advocating and promoting the very real and honest truth that alternatives to government exist. We don't need big government, subsidies, tax breaks, and the sanction of the political elite where it comes to addressing the regulation of the market economy and other social problems that make up the bulk of our everyday life experience.

The task before us to preserve and ameliorate our ailing Republic is formidable. And because of the complexity of related issues, the problem of illegal immigration must be addressed by taking a view of the bigger picture as described above. That being said, while understandable in terms of  of its origin, the defeatism expressed by the likes of Aliska must be rejected. America is an idea, and it is an idea steeped in optimism of the sort espoused and bestowed unto us by Ronald Reagan . The American ideals of self-reliance, rugged-individualism, and equal opportunity for all, each sell themselves.

The country is in a quagmire in part because too many people now look to the government for the answers to all their problems, and we are over-regulated (in business and in petty things like smoking, seat belt laws, cell phone use, etc.). Government at all levels in this country make somewhere in the ballpark of 86,000 laws and regulations per year. How much regulation do we need from government? How did we ever make it this far without these regulations? Unfortunately, very few, if any, of these regulations actually addresses a public good - almost every law enacted is done so at the behest of, or to the benefit of, some special interest.

This sad state of affairs can change, and it must change if we are to succeed and thrive as a free nation in an increasingly competitive and hostile world. We must recognize that while the task is great, and the risks associated with failure are high, we can and must make a difference. It's what political movement is all about, and we have the best incentives, motives, and ideas behind us.

God Bless America!

75 posted on 11/30/2002 11:47:13 AM PST by citizenK
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To: citizenK
Forget about Tancredo -- YOU get my vote!

Nice agenda you've outlined -- clear, concise, makes all the sense in the world while preserving the Republic the way it ought be preserved...BUT...

The only problem is sovereign America has already given over the reigns to the One Worlders. Yep -- done-deal.

Is there any MORE proof that we've been sold out than the selection and ascendency of Bill Clinton -- BILL CLINTON to run the United States of America?? And for TWO terms.

I rest my case....

77 posted on 11/30/2002 12:01:12 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: citizenK
What a great assessment! Methinks you have some experience in arguing this issue.

I commend you on your insightful post.

80 posted on 11/30/2002 12:29:24 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: citizenK
"taxed to the point of theft and regulated to the point of harassment."

Standing and cheering on that note! You are sooo right! Evidenced by my uncle's heart attack when he was being harrassed. I said it was because of his grass, but that is not the only thing they complained about. My uncle has classic cars and the city TOWED all of them off his private property in the middle of the night!!! Why? Because they said they were inoperable...in various stages of renewal. One simply had the tires off because the brake drums were in the shop being reground! You talk about regulating people to the point of harrassment, I have NEVER in my life seen anything so ridiculous as what I saw here in Minneapolis! There were feeders on the ground for little creatures that roam around the area. On his private property! He was told that he could not have them! There were metal trash cans set against the side of the garage for the purpose of allowing the tenants a place to RECYCLE plastic, cans, etc. He was told that they could not be there because they were an eye-sorer! For God's sake! This was in my uncle's backyard where it is no one's damn business, imo! It is private property NOT IN VIEW OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC!

Uhhhh....now you have got me going! LOL...and I haven't even finished reading what you wrote yet! :) I'll be back, I'm sure. :)

121 posted on 11/30/2002 5:09:02 PM PST by MistyCA
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To: citizenK; B4Ranch
What can we do?

1) We must recognize what is, and what has been, happening to our country with respect to the rise of socialism in America during the 20th Century.

2) We must vociferously demand tax reduction, reform of the tax system, deregulation, and the restoration of property rights.

3) We must bring an end to the effectiveness of class warfare in politics with the inculcation of the American Dream and the American way of life based on the supremacy of the individual and individual rights, self-reliance, personal responsibility, independence, and freedom.

4) We must advocate adherence to the limitations placed upon government by the Constitution, and we must do so by holding politicians accountable, both in terms of elections and in public relations, when they demonstrate their contempt for the Constitution.

5) We must seek out and elect better leaders by effectively changing the political discourse and taking command of the terms of political debate and the ground upon which political debate occurs.

6) Finally, we must dismantle the welfare state and the government largess of socialism by advocating and promoting the very real and honest truth that alternatives to government exist. We don't need big government, subsidies, tax breaks, and the sanction of the political elite where it comes to addressing the regulation of the market economy and other social problems that make up the bulk of our everyday life experience.     America's brand of socialism is a.k.a. corporatism

Touché CK!   What a great thread B4!

135 posted on 11/30/2002 6:18:29 PM PST by GirlShortstop
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To: citizenK
That was an excellent, well thought-out post. Unfortunately I don't think what you propose will work any longer. There is no turning back the clock. The system is snowballing.

There is no way to get good people in government any more. Most of the well-educated are leftists. Most of the politicians haven't lived in the real world since they were born. There is no way in hell an unknown can be elected even with money and connections.

Rather than talking about fixing things, we ought to be focussed on how to get through the changes being imposed upon us.

The government is no longer run of the people, by the people and for the people. The government bows to special interest groups and we shouldn't have meddled in foreign affairs to the extent we have done.

If the government listened to the people, we wouldn't have gotten into this mess because the American people would have wanted immigration drastically curtailed.

148 posted on 11/30/2002 7:28:03 PM PST by Aliska
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