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I said that I wasn't going to get involved in this one. I told myself that I was going to keep my damn fool mouth shut, lest I stick my foot in it. But noooooo... So here goes:

Many people seem to feel that illegal immigrants are vile scum who break our immigration laws expressly to rape our women, kill our men, and tax our welfare and health care systems. After hearing Michelle Malkin speak, I was struck by her obviously hysterical portrait of illegals, which is completely false for the overwhelming majority of them.

'Hysterical?' I don't think so -- we're a nation at war. Many speculative fiction writers have portrayed "future" wars as being fought not among nations, but among corporate entities, and quasi-nation pseudo-states, and by God, one of those quasi-states declared war on the US on 9/11.

In a time of war, you have to look at your defenses. You have to recognize who are your friends and who are not. And I don't know that we can recognize Mexico as our friends. Thanks to an open borders policy, they can admit anyone from anywhere. And thanks to our toilet paper-thin border with Mexico, those folks can enter this country without as much as a by-your-leave. At least the border with Canada could be called balsa wood in comparison.

I like illegal immigrants. That's right, I do. They have the guts to flee the disasterous problems in their own country and seek new frontiers in the US. They take enormous risks to come here, walking through deserts, piling into flimsy vehicles, and going for long periods of time without food or water. All so they can work here and send their earnings down to their long-suffering families back in Mexico.

And does this mean that you don't have a problem with those entering this country from Haiti? Why, they certainly are entering the nation at "enormous risk," in "flimsy vehicles" and "going for long periods without food or water.

Contrary to many here, not only do I think that we need to have stringent controls on those entering from Mexico, but also on those from Haiti and Cuba as well. We give "special exception" for "refugees" from Cuba, but let's call 'em what they are -- illegal aliens. Those Cubans have entered this country just as illegally as those from Mexico or Haiti. But because we've got a "small" philosophical problem with Fidel Castro, they get a pass? I don't think so.

They are just as much part of the problem as those from below the border. And they pose just as much risk as those from elsewhere. My point is that to effectivcely enforce a tightened southern border, we also need to stem the tide of those coming here from across the Florida Straits.

Yes, they are lawbreakers. So are most of us; do you not go 55 miles an hour in a 45 zone much of the time? Do you not arrange your tax return to pay as little tax as possible? Of course you do.

Whether we are "lawbreakers" or not is immaterial to this issue. The issue is defending the borders of this soverign nation from those who would invade - one way or another.

Don't get me wrong - I've got no problem with legal immigration. Plenty do it all the time, and there's nothing preventing it, especially for those from a non-opporessive regime in Mexico.

I am not saying illegals are perfect, but they do the jobs most of us don't want to do, and they work hard and do them well. From what I have seen, most of our native entry-level workers are apathetic, spoiled and rebellious; Mexicans come to do our work, and don't complain.

So, since they are willing to become our "underclass" and do all the "grunt" jobs that we "don't want to do" then it's OK to let them in? How much more condescending can you be? This proposal sounds little different from the liberal "we're from the Governement, we're here to "help" you" mentality. And furthermore, who are you to say what jobs people here want and don't want to do? When people enter "survival" mode, they do whatever job they have the opportunity and skill-set to manage to be able to do, all while they find a way to scrabble out of whatever hole they've ended up in.

Because it looks a lot like a war against hispanics, even those who are in the country legally. Those here in California will not vote for a Republican for as long as this issue is prominent. What you're going to do is split the Republican party over this issue, and ensure the Democrats a permanent lock on the Statehouse.
More to the point, all of this hateful talk about illegals strikes me as UnAmerican, contrary to the principles we hold dear. Illegals are trying to better themselves, to find a better, fuller, more satisfying life.

Because it "looks" like a war against Hispanics? Or it looks like a soverign nation protecting itself? One who happens to have more in its coffers, and therefore is ripe for the picking?

The hatred I hear in your voices for illegals will force everyone who is an immigrant, is the child of an immigrant, or is friends with an immigrant to vote against you. If fully expressed, as you folks seem to want, it will create 90-10 margins for the Democrats among Hispanic voters, and our party will be finished. Frankly, it appalls me that people I generally like and respect are listening seriously to this kind of talk.

I've had this conversation with hchutch previously. If we grant amnesty to illegals, you will see illegals enter this country like never before. You think there's a flood coming across the Rio Grande basin now, just you wait. And if you think all those brand new illegals will "gladly" vote Republican, then your rose-colored glasses are thicker than I thought.

There will be a torrent like never before into this country, and they'll set up shop in Texas, in Arizona, in California, in Colorado, and begin to work their way northward and eastward. And of course, if it's OK for them to enter, then what about the Haitians and Cubans? Ready for literally hundreds of leaky washtub excuses for boats in the Florida Straits? Ready for dozens of stolen airplanes landing in the Everglades?

Be careful of what you wish for. You just might get it.

Before I close this up, I should respond to Michelle Malkin's point about Al Queda and immigration law. Is it true the Al Queda members could flood into this country from Mexico if our borders are not closed?
Yes, it is true.
But I feel we have better ways of catching them. Hit their money trail, for example. Or check anyone who has contact with suspected Al Queda cells and form a pattern. This investigation method has the massive advantage of only affecting the civil rights of potential Al Queda members, not all tourists. It will spot Al Queda members already here - and we have reason to believe most of their network is already in place. And it also has the advantage of being much, much cheaper. So don't consider the Al Queda connection a reason to majorly inconvenience everyone who ever enters this country from another nation.

Do you realize that we are at war with Al Qaeda? At war with radical Islam? Do you realize that they will stop at nothing? Do you realize that if we haven't been able to catch 'em all after this long that opening the borders will make it that much harder? This isn't Pokemon, y'know (Y'gotta catch 'em all!). This is our very survival at stake. It's not a game. Think carefully about what you're asking for. Think very carefully.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers - I don't think draconian measures are necessary, contrary to the thoughts of some, both here and elsewhere. But Pollyana-ish dreams of opening the borders and having illegals run into our waiting arms is nothing short of suicidal, and I'm not ready to jump off the cliff yet.

Many thanks for writing a civilized and intelligent response to my post. I appreciate it.

But I can knock down half of your argument with one comment, unfortunately. I do not believe it is possible to close our borders without taking draconian measures. People are willing to take enormous risks to get here.

I might also add that unless we do completely close off our borders, taking those draconian measures, Al Queda operatives are going to make it in. I strongly suspect that our people would not tolerate projects like building a Berlin Wall over every inch of our border. And if this is true, we will still have illegals, and the Al Queda will still get in.

So in a sense, the nice folks on this thread are perfectly right: You are With Us or Against Us. However, this kind of attitude is unacceptable in a Democracy, so they don't get much respect.

So what do we do? I will simply note that what we are doing, good old fashioned investigative work, is working. Al Queda has not been able to mount a successful major attack in this country since 9/11. The cold truth is that before 9/11, we were not listening. Now we are, and when we see evidence of an attack, we move forward.

To me, the border is an abstraction. If good people want to come here and work, I don't care if they came from Planet Mars. This is the Land of Opportunity, and I hope it will always remain that way. I don't care if they're from Mexico, Cuba, Haiti or even Canada. I welcome them, personally. Actually, I particularly admire Cubans because they're very enterprising. When I was in South Florida a couple of years ago, I saw plenty of Mercedes-Benz S-Class sedans owned by Cubans. Our Mexicans, quite frankly, could learn a lot from the Cubans. And need I remind you that Cubans vote Republican?

I have to leave for work in a couple of minutes, so I will just re-iterate that Al Queda operators are going to get in unless we erect a giant wall on our borders - and I don't think there is the staff, the political willpower or even the desire among average Americans to make that happen.

I'm sorry I didn't have time to address your other comments, but I think this is the crux of the matter.

D

First, let's summarize the arguments I've already made.

Al Queda IS going to get into this country from the South, exploiting our pourous borders and our generally trusting nature.
To prevent this, we can go one of two ways:
- We can put fences and guard boxes on every mile of our borders. We can put troops in the guard boxes. We can delay every car that goes across the border for half an hour as we do a detailed search of every nook and cranny where an illegal could be hiding.
  -OR-
- We can simply trace connections between Al Queda members already here, the new arrivals, and known agents in foreign countries. Through this technique, we should be able to identify all the Al Queda agents here, without inconveniencing tens of thousands of innocent people (primarily including American citizens on vacation South of the Border).
  Not only would this be loads cheaper (by billions of dollars!), it would also be enormously more effective.

Okay. There's one additional complication: It's all or nothing. If we fortify part of the border, illegals will sneak across the unfortified section. We have to do the whole thing or nothing at all. In between measures will cost us lots of money and won't reduce the flow of illegals one bit, just as France's infamous Maginot Line didn't help the French when Hitler simply bypassed it.

Fine. Let me now consider your other points.

We are a nation at war, yes.

But are we a nation at war with Mexico or Mexicans?

As far as I know, no.

As I have said in other responses here, no, I don't care where people come from, as long as they are prepared to work hard and provide services to the people of this nation, whether at a high level or a low one. I especially like Cubans; I've met a few and I'm very impressed with their pluck, determination and faith in our system. I have never met a Hatian, so I can't comment directly on them.

But perhaps this is the crux of the matter:

The issue is defending the borders of this soverign nation from those who would invade - one way or another.

Is the appearance of illegals on our shores an invasion? If you think in that way, I can surely see why the current situation would cause a panic.

But the overwhelming majority of illegals are simply here to work, to strive and to improve their economic situation. In other words, they are here to help us. They have no plans to change our government. Even when naturalized, they rarely participate in elections. And do they have weapons, with which they plan to overthrow us? Sorry, no.

Let me give you an example which I think illustrates the different points of view about illegal aliens.

To me, illegal aliens are an opportunity, because we can put them to work alongside with citizens, and overall make more stuff, and therefore more money. We can also become more competitive with factories in China, Mexico and other locations. Therefore, illegals help keep factories operating and our economy humming along.

To you, illegal aliens are a curse, because they displace citizens from jobs. But this is not the whole story; in October of this year, unemployment was low, at about 6.4%. In contrast, employment in Europe has been around 10%, in nations where the border is far less pourous and illegal immigration relatively rare. There were plenty of illegals around when our unemployment rate was at historic lows. I can only conclude that overall employment has expanded and we have successfully absorbed the illegals into our working population. What's wrong with that, then?

In other words, do you consider people coming here to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay to be thieves? I'm sorry, I just can't buy that.

So, since they are willing to become our "underclass" and do all the "grunt" jobs that we "don't want to do" then it's OK to let them in? How much more condescending can you be? This proposal sounds little different from the liberal "we're from the Governement, we're here to "help" you" mentality. And furthermore, who are you to say what jobs people here want and don't want to do? When people enter "survival" mode, they do whatever job they have the opportunity and skill-set to manage to be able to do, all while they find a way to scrabble out of whatever hole they've ended up in.

I certainly didn't mean to be condescending to anyone. I was simply reporting a truth: That Mexicans are lined up at the border, begging to become factory or service workers for very little money. And if they are willing to do this, why not let them in?

The only tenable answer is protection of existing workers. There are two things wrong with this. The first is that, as I have mentioned above, we have a very low unemployment rate and so we have jobs for more workers than we can get. I don't need to remind you what's happened to our birth rate over the past few decades; now that's biting us. Mexicans have the opposite problem - they have too many people and too few jobs. So what's wrong with us borrowing Mexicans and putting them to work? Everyone gains. We gain, with more workers; Mexico gains from the money returned to them, and the workers gain because they get better pay.

The second thing is that, as you have mentioned yourself, we are not training our citizens adequately to take even entry-level jobs. In our telemarketing department, we hire many entry-level people; there is chronic absenteeism and I have seen the effect on the company first-hand. It may be true that some of our citizens need entry level jobs, but when offered them, they often do poorly due to factors you have explored many times in your own threads.

Illegal aliens provide our entry level workers with much needed competition that will cause them to clean up their acts. In the long run, this is good for them, and it's definitely good for society.

Perhaps best of all, entry level in our system doesn't mean entry level forever.

For those who work hard and do great work, promotion is possible. Someone who comes in as a factory hand can eventually become factory manager; today's fast food clerk is tomorrow's fast food manager, or even franchise owner. If you're an illegal, you generally come in at the bottom. But that doesn't mean you have to stay that way.

And that makes me proud to be an American.

PS I apologise for the length of this; I hope I have now successfully addressed all your points.