Posted on 11/17/2002 7:03:27 AM PST by FlyingA
As a consultant, I've been hit by the slowing of the economy and the destruction of the tech sector, I've recently caught myself dwelling over the prosperous times of the late 90's when I was making 6 figures. Being one to want to know the wheres, whats... and particularly the why's... I started researching the issues behind the downfall of the tech sector within the U.S.
While this is hardly a comprehensive explanation of what’s wrong with the economy and every aspect of the tech sector, it is in my opinion the quickest and most obvious thing that’s wrong with it today.
What I found out was that through out the mid & late 90's... Large software corporations were experiencing a very public and published labor shortage of skilled tech workers in America. Companies like Microsoft and Oracle among other large corporations began to lobby Washington to increase the cap on H1-B visas from 65,000 to 130,000 per fiscal year looking to get the bill "American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act" (S.B. 2045) passed.
This bill received a lot of resistance from 1996, when it was first proposed, through 2000 and looked like it was dead several times. Due to amendments on both sides of the isle it remained alive and in Oct 2000, then President Clinton signed the bill S.B. 2045 into law. Which is effective from 2000-2003 and allows the number of 6 year H1-B visa to ultimately be increased to 195,000 per fiscal year. Over the last 2 years, the number of individuals in America under H1-B visa has risen to 650,000 people.
36% of the unemployed 1.8 million Americans could be working if it wasn't for this law. It seems to me that we as high tech workers need to right our Congressmen & Senators and put a stop to this law.....
FlyingA
Here are your very own words, contemplate them:
citizenship requirement is an intervention into the labor market
You have made some excellent points also. TopQuark and others like him don't give a damn about what happens to this country.
I take offense at these words, and I have given you no basis for it. I have pointed out to you the difference between the questions of what forrest is and whether it has to be chopped down (one is referred to as positive and the other as normative). YOu should know the difference yourself and at least recognize it when pointed out by others.
As a loyal citizen and a pariot, I do take offense at your words, and you do owe me an apology.
What a close-minded ignorant bunch!
What the h-ll do you know about what I have done for my country? Go take and shove it your bigoted patriotism where you cannot brush.
And does that make you "the diviner of how much each profession should get paid"? How much is a worker worth? I would say, "as much as they are getting paid". I don't pretend, like you, to have answers that only the market can give.
Truth about these H1B visa workers... I have no problem with them, in theory. I went to school with plenty of foreign guys in engineering school. Some of them were my best friends, and many of them became H1B workers upon graduation... And they got treated to a sub-average salaries until they became permanent residents. After receiving permanent residency, each one left his "indentured servitude" job and found a well-paying job.
Some of the posters here sound like they have a chip on their shoulder about the H1B workers. I don't. I own a business, and am actually glad to see more technical folks allowed into America. Sure beats the millions of uneducated people who sneak in from Mexico. But the problem that I see... and the problem that you don't see... is that the H1B situation is a distortion of capitalism. If we need technical workers, then give them permanent residency immediately. Give them employment rights on a par with American citizens. Then, if they can win jobs away from Americans, at least it will be a fair competition.
It's simple... If the current H1B rules were not a distortion of capitalism, then you would not see the big pay jump for H1B workers after they receive permanent residency.
As for "worth," the market has spoken: one is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay.
Your statement, "citizenship requirement is an intervention into the labor market", is as clearly anti-citizenship and anti-American as you can get. What it is saying in essence is that citizenship is in the way of corporate needs, that to have a "free" labor market we need to do away with citizenship. In my opinion citizenship is what holds America together and what makes this land a nation. According to you citizenship is in the way and should be removed from the labor market equation. If this is not what you are saying then I will apologize for calling you anti American.
You are free to hire as many foreigners as you want, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so. You do not need the American government to change it's immigration policies and the labor market in America just because you want to hire foreigners. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from hiring as many foreigners as you want all you have to do is go to the country that pleases you the most and hire away.
It is not anti- or pro- anything. It is a value-neutral observation of fact, like "knife can cut." If I say, "A knife can cut," you should not draw conclusions that I advocate violence --- or anything, for that matter.
What it is saying in essence is that citizenship is in the way of corporate needs, Yes, and in the way of consumer of private goods, and the sole proprietor (not just corporations).
We have erected these barriers (as well as other countries) precisely because we are not just consumers and not just producers: we are Americans first and cherish that honor and privilege.
But one has to call a spade a spade: it is an imedement to free markets erected for a purpose. That's all I tried to clarify in the previous posts, in response to those who claimed that H-visas were a market intervention.
In my opinion citizenship is what holds America together and what makes this land a nation. Yes, and our shared belief in our core values of liberty.
According to you citizenship is in the way yes it is.
and should be removed from the labor market equation. No it should not. Until now I never said anything with "should" or "should not" in it. As I said earlier, you should differentiate positive and normative statements.
If this is not what you are saying then I will apologize for calling you anti American.
I accept. Have a good night.
I am opposed to the policy, I have no animosity against any H-1B person.
I own a business, and am actually glad to see more technical folks allowed into America.
There are many people being laid-off and the job market for Engineers across the country is very bleak. Continuing a program and professing that it is "good" for America during a time when jobs are in short supply does not make sense to some of us. This program was enacted because corporations said there was a "labor shortage". I can assure you there is no labor shortage now, to the contrary there is a severe job shortage.
Somehow I dont think that's what those who want to get rid of H1B have in mind. I think they just want their gravy train back.
I probably came across as a big proponent of the current (expanded) H1B situation. I'm not, although I think it is wise for the US to offer US residency to the cream of the foreign crop.
My biggest gripe with the program, though, is that we let plenty of people become citizens who won't work to support themselves. Yet, with the H1B folks, it's the opposite: "You can work here, but only as a guest of a corporation which holds the power to deport you at their discretion."
IMO, Congress must have let certain large corporations write the H1B legislation. If this was about helping the US, the H1B folks would have been offered permanent residency. But it never was about helping the US... It was always about helping certain corporations by setting up an "indentured servitude" program to drive down technical salaries.
BTW, I once checked out the paperwork for obtaining an H1B visa for a foreign relative of mine. Believe me, it is costly in terms of money and time. It is geared for large businesses.
Actually not. H1B workers are indentured servants as they cannot change their jobs. Also their costs (like education) are very different from the investment American engineers had to risk to finish college. Take into account the living standards (shared appartments), family obligation (children, old parents left in the old country to be brought later).
Also the potential compensation - American citizenship should not be a thing for a private company to have at its disposal to distribute. At the same time the social costs of displacement of American workers are not paid by the corporation.
This is not a free market - it is a VERY costly form of corporate welfare. It would be much cheaper to make a direct cash handout to those corporations.
To the free market fundamentalist SHORT term EPS is what counts. And the paradox is that in the LONG term conservative, patriotic approach is what makes the nation prosperous. Globalist free-marketeers after they make quick profit here, will move to the other country if this one gets in trouble.
And this is a vicious circle - displaced American workers and their families increase the cost of social programs or lower the tax base. This added cost is not calculated in the budgets of corporations importing foreign workers or exporting the jobs.
There is another, more compelling reason - assuming that a person works 60 hour a week - he will have 30 dollars to live on. It is enough to have some cheap food and clothes found in the trash, but the shelter will have to be under the bridge near the workplace (you will not be able to afford the transportation). Forget about having the family.
Costs of living in America are much higher than in China or India. In the global free-market the costs of living and wages will tend to be equal. What is the gain in it for the average American?
In the long run it might benefit the whole mankind, assuming that the final equilibrium will not be Third World model of small group super-rich and masses of semi-unslaved peons. But more prudent would be to regulate this process and protect the standard of living in developed countries while helping poor countries to catch up. Free market process is a blind force when kept pure or a disguise for the corrupt manipulation by the powerful few.
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