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To: gdebrae; the_doc
...We may slightly differ about the great white throne judgment....

Perhaps yes, a subtle (but I think you'll agree) important difference that further bears on the interpretation and application of John 5:28-29.

God's final judgment about all unbelievers is found in [Rev 20] verse 5a, and 11-15.

John 5:28,29 describes an actually historical event. Rev. 20 properly understood, helps us to understand something about the significance and real meaning of that very real historical event.

the_doc's view (I believe) as I've previously accumulated and posted here in #828 is that John 5:29 records 'those who have done evil rising to condemnation' (John 5:29b) which agrees with your view of Rev 20:11-15, and also records 'those who have done good rising to life' (John 5:29a) which would seem to disagree with your view of Rev 20:11-15.

the_doc has stated John 5:28-29 is the 'clear picture' through which Rev 20 must be viewed and also drew a parallel correspondence between John 5:28-29 specifically with Rev 20:11-15, which correspondences I clarified and the_doc concurred.

So what I wish to be clear on is that you are stating that Rev 20:11-15 is "God's final judgment about all unbelievers" while the_doc's correspondence of Rev 20:11-15 with the 'clear picture' of John 5:29a (the 'good rising to life') would contradict.

You also point out John 5:28,29 "describes an actually historical event." So again if John 5:28-29 is the 'clear picture' that applies to Rev 20:11-15, you seem to further imply that Rev 20:11-15 is likewise a historical event. I don't think you mean that Rev 20:11-15 is already history, do you?

840 posted on 11/28/2002 12:56:12 PM PST by Starwind
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To: Starwind; the_doc; RnMomof7; jude24
the_doc has stated John 5:28-29 is the 'clear picture' through which Rev 20 must be viewed and also drew a parallel correspondence between John 5:28-29 specifically with Rev 20:11-15, which correspondences I clarified and the_doc concurred.

I think that the_doc's position is that John 5:24-29 is the clear picture, not just vss 28-29. However, vss28-29 do not allow the insertion of a literal 1000 years. That is why these two verses are so important. Rev. 20 which is not a clear text because of the prophetic language and imagery used should be interpreted in the light of clearer texts of which Jn5:24-29 is. I do not see an exact parallel but I agree that it is critical to a proper interpretation of Rev. 20.

While I understand Rev.20 to speak only of spiritual life and death, that is not unrelated to the bodily resurrection and judgment on the last day. For the final judgment will reveal who belongs to Christ and who does not.

There is a sense in which we are already judged in this life. John3:18 "He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God." Romans 8 agrees with this."There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." 8:33"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that judtifieth...." Someone has said that justification by faith is the last judgment anticipated.

Therefore John 5:28-29 is the final outcome of John 5:24-25. They are certainly not unrelated. I believe Rev.20 parallels John 5:24-25 with clear implications for what is stated in John 5:28-29.

While I do not think bodily resurrection is mentioned in Rev. 20 it may well be assumed. Rev. 20:6 using the future tense and stating that the second death has no power over those who belong to Christ, in the light of other texts may well be assuming a bodily resurrection. The same is true for vss 11-15.

Let me suggest a parallel between John 5 and Rev. 20 which will come very close to the-doc. John 5:24-27 find a parallel in Rev. 20:4,5. Notice the past tense. These verses talk about being spiritually alive or dead. John 5:28-29 are related to Rev. 20:6 (note the future tense) and vss 11-15 where I think bodily resurrection may be assumed. Believers are raised to enjoy eternal life while unbelievers are raised to eternal condemnation. Vss6 and 11-15 do not speak directly about bodily resurrection but certainly speak clearly about the eternal future of believers and unbelievers.

841 posted on 11/28/2002 3:57:06 PM PST by gdebrae
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To: Starwind
See my #842.
843 posted on 11/28/2002 5:47:01 PM PST by the_doc
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