Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins
If they're not they're hopelessly blinded by the revisionist heresy.
The point is that you don't KNOW that it is "literal" or "figurative." You cannot speak authoritatively because you don't know.
I can tell folks to be on the lookout for either....can you?
Are you going to get the new computer chip implant put into you and your family so they can be identified whereever they might get lost?
Full preterists need not worry about that "chip." They believe this all happened in the early history of the church.
Is that the total Kingdom? In it's entirety? Full-blown, complete, nothing lacking? Or is it, more likely, that aspect of the Kingdom of God which frees one from the strong man, as is referred to in this passage? I think you're talking Jesus' words to an extreme here, trying to have Him make an all-inclusive pronouncement when what He was doing was pointing out that by casting out devils, He was bringing the benefit of the Kingdom of God, in His person and authority, to those who experienced and witnessed the event. As the King of the Kingdom, in a real sense, anywhere He was (or is), the Kingdom of God was (or is), embodied in Him.
And how about this verse which flatly declares that the working of Satan is even right now currently bound by Him; that is, unless He has been taken out of the way:
No argument that there is a restraint of Satan as far as the scope of his activities now, by virtue of the fact that the Holy Spirit is still in this world, bringing souls to Christ, and Christians are by their very presence, salt in the world. Your mistake is in equating this with the binding in Rev.20. That is different, more complete, and not something that has happened yet, or is happening. The language used to describe the binding, the place of banishment, and the specific time duration of that binding and banishment is evidence that it is different than the restraint which is now currently placed on Satan. The language is specific, detailed, and sufficiently graphic to indicate that Rev. 20 is a separate event from what has gone before, in regard to Satan's activities.
You said "unless He has been taken out of the way". I take it you mean God's restraint, as the reading of this passage would seem to indicate. When, and under what circumstances, would this happen?
| Correspondence | John 5 | Rev 20 |
| John 5:24,25 describes a time coming of a spiritual resurrection, an 'era of regeneration unto conversion' to use the_doc's words, which corresponds to Rev 20:4,6 description of "souls" who did not take the mark of the beast - the 1st resurrection. | 24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. | 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. |
| John 5:28,29 describes a time coming of a phsyical resurrection (not spiritual but bodily) of everyone in their graves to be judged to life (heaven) or condemnation (hell), which corresponds to the dead of Rev 20:12 being judged at the white throne according to their works. This has been called by some commentators the '2nd resurrection', ostensibly as it corresponds to the '2nd death'. | 28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. | 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. |
However:
If John 5:25 describes a 'regeneration unto conversion' which corresponds to the souls of Rev 20:4 who didn't take the mark of the beast, where are all the other 'believing' souls who crossed over from death to life in the earlier era ('a time has come now') described in John 5:24? Where is the correspondence between John 5:25's era of the spiritually resurrected whose time has now come and the 1st resurrection of Rev 20? Or put another way, when do all the rest of the Christians get resurrected?
John 5:28,29 describes everyone in a grave (all who ever died) rising to be judged by what they have done which corresponds to the dead of Rev 20:12-15 the small and great, given up from death and hell, judged in Rev 20:12,13 according to their works, and whosever was not in the book of life receives the 2nd death. In both John 5:28,29 and Rev 20:12,13 everyone is judged according to their works and no one is actually mentioned as having been in the book of life. So, again when do the believing Christians get resurrected? Where are they mentioned?
John 5:29 says "those who have done good will rise to live", which implies saved by works and not by faith in Christ. This correspondence of the judgement according to works at the white throne in Rev 20:12,13 to the rising according to having done good or evil in John 5:29 only seems to reinforce the view that those in John 5:29 are also judged according to works. Interpreting John 5:29 was already difficult and corresponding it to Rev 20:12,13 increases the difficulty.
So to sum up my questions, from the Amillenial viewpoint, when do the already dead believing Christians get bodily resurrected and found in the Book of Life, according to faith in Christ, not of works?
They'll have it when it counts!
Amillenialism is clearly part of the Strong Dellusion that the Lord has promised, and it is deluding many that consider themselves part of the Very Elect.
Clue:
Use 'notepad' or your word prosser to compose long posts, and then 'clipboard' them over to the posting window.
Dan
I have NEVER believed in a LITERAL mark..not ever..it is a lie (deception)from the pit of hell
What an insulting connection to make to defend an indefensible mistake that should have been corrected centuries ago.
Dan
The group is still around but badly splintered. Their 'prophet', Victor Paul Wierwille, died a few years back. His successor has been sued for sexual harrassment and he purged the group of those who opposed him. From my limited research in the group Wierwille embraced the charismatic movement and they are basically a 'name it and claim it', 'gab it and grab it' movement. Like any other cult Wierwille had complete control and when he died the group splintered but there is apparently still a remnant.
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