Yale libertarian plans drastic 'Free State Project'

Yale Daily News ^ | Wednesday, October 23, 2002 | EMILY ANTHES

[Roscoe]

the blood of his murdered fellow-countrymen

Actually, the American servicemen were murdered and dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia, Libertarianism's almost "ideal anarchy."

American forces are reportedly targeted on the the primary threat in the area, which is the Somali Islamist movement, al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya, much to the consternation of apologists for anarchy and enemies of our current administration.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your quote is a fabrication. The actual quote: Somalia was (and is?) an almost ideal anarchy in the years after the military fiasco of the United Nations. Michael was also very active in instructing the local chieftains in the principles of a "Kritachy". According to Michael those people already lived in a kind of kritarchy which made his advice fall on fertile soil. A kritarchy is a land that is solely governed by "judges". His ideal was to turn Somaliland into a libertarian country.

Exactly. Your own quotation PROVES you are lying through your teeth, and you know it. As the citation clearly demonstrates, Somalia was (and is?) a completely uncivilized anarchy which Libertarian Michiel van Notten sought to replace with a Kritarchy -- a Judicial Government predicated on the Rule of Law.

Because of his ideas on free zones and freeports Michael developed many contacts with other foreign governments interested in such projects. Although steps into the right direction resulted, often these were blocked by politicians who only have their own power at heart. While he was involved in these matters Michael got in touch with Somalia at the start of the nineties and set to work to realise his free market ideal. He settled in Somaliland and worked there in cooperation with the local population. He was personally involved, for instance, in the construction of water wells. Somalia was (and is?) an almost ideal anarchy in the years after the military fiasco of the United Nations. Michael was also very active in instructing the local chieftains in the principles of a "Kritachy". According to Michael those people already lived in a kind of kritarchy which made his advice fall on fertile soil. A kritarchy is a land that is solely governed by "judges". His ideal was to turn Somaliland into a libertarian country. This all led to a more business-like approach. He founded a development company to realise a large number of big projects. One of those projects was the development of a complete fishery- and fish processing industry including fishing boats and their protection

If you are trying to replace anarchy (no government) with kritarchy (Judicial Government), then you are trying to bring the Rule of Law to a country which has none.

Your citation proves this, and proves you are willfully lying -- a blatant Disruptor who spreads fabrications and fraud for the purpose of advancing the Power of the State.

Somalia, more than any nation on earth, fits the vision of Libertarianism's worst ideologues. To them, the children of Somalia are expendable pawns to the cause of "ideal" anarchy.

Yet another blatant lie, from Free Republic's very own Roscoe, a fifth columnist advocate of Islamic Shariah... (see my #139, which notes your praise for the Islamofascist constitution adopted by Somaliland after the "failure" of the libertarian enterprise).

These are the FACTS:

• Recognizing the complete Anarchy then prevalent in Somalia, Libertarians sought to develop the Rule of Law, Food, and Water resources in Somalia.
• You, Roscoe, opposed this -- pleased as punch with the starvation of thousands, as long as the Libertarian attempt to develop Food Water resources "failed".
• And you, Roscoe, have openly celebrated the establishment of a Repressive Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny in Somaliland instead of a Libertarian Kritarchy.

Your sociopathic hatred of Liberty has led you to spit on the blood of your Countrymen, murdered by the thousands on 9/11, and instead celebrate the establishment of another breeding ground for Islamofascism -- because at least they're not Libertarians.

Your whorish cheerleading for the Islamic Shari'ah in Somaliland is an insult to all American Patriots and clearly identifies you as a Fifth Columnist and a Disruptor.

---

Fifth Columnist Disruptors like "Roscoe" who openly celebrate the establishment of a Repressive Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny in Somaliland are a treasonous poison to Free Republic.

[Roscoe]

Somalia was (and is?) a completely uncivilized anarchy

The actual quote: "Somalia was (and is?) an almost ideal anarchy"

Judicial Government predicated on the Rule of Law.

False. Kritarchy is the absence of law and its replacement with "judges" imposing an ad hoc application of libertarianism. In other words, anarchy and kangaroo courts.

Your whorish cheerleading for the Islamic Shari'ah in Somaliland

American servicemen were murdered and dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia, Libertarianism's almost "ideal anarchy."

American forces are reportedly targeted on the the primary threat in the area, which is the Somali Islamist movement, al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya, much to the consternation of apologists for anarchy and enemies of our current administration.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

The actual quote: "Somalia was (and is?) an almost ideal anarchy"

...i.e., there was no existing Government in place to prevent the establishment of a Kritarchy, bringing the Rule of Law to a country which had none.

Judicial Government predicated on the Rule of Law. ~~ False. Kritarchy is the absence of law and its replacement with "judges" imposing an ad hoc application of libertarianism. In other words, anarchy and kangaroo courts.

False. "Kritarchy" is the sort of Government that God established in Levite Israel -- which you call "the absence of law, anarchy and kangaroo courts".
You do not have to vomit your hatred for God all over the Free Republic Forum, Roscoe. It's most unseemly.

American forces are reportedly targeted on the the primary threat in the area, which is the Somali Islamist movement, al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya, much to the consternation of apologists for anarchy and enemies of our current administration.

Apologists for Islamic terrorists?

Like this one....?

Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny established in Somaliland
~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe

Sickening.

In your sociopathic hatred against Liberty and Americanism, you openly celebrate the establishment of more breeding grounds of Islamofascism, and spit on the blood of your murdered fellow-countrymen.

And you have the gall to use Free Republic bandwidth to sing the praises of these Islamofascists.

Some dare call it Treason.

[Roscoe]

Kritarchy, bringing the Rule of Law

Oxymoronic. Kritarchy is premised on the absence of law.

"Kritarchy" is the sort of Government that God established in Levite Israel

Nonsense. The written law wasn't abolished and the word of God wasn't abandoned.

Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny established in Somaliland ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe

Another false quote.

BTW, the Bush administration has put the Somali Islamist movement al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya (“Islamic Unity”) on its list of terrorist organizations.

Those who hate our President and our current administration must find that infuriating.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Kritarchy, bringing the Rule of Law Oxymoronic. Kritarchy is premised on the absence of law.

Bollocks. You are just making up Lies as you go, desperately trying to salvage your Slanders from the light of Truths raised against you.

Kritarchy is premised upon the existence of Law.

Kritarchy

I began by saying that a social experiment with far-reaching implications is shaping up in Somalia. That experiment consists in the Somalis seeking an alternative to legislative law by looking to their existing customary tribal law, the Xeer, and its further development to serve all of the needs of an emerging urban society. The Xeer promises to become one of the great bodies of customary law, like Anglo-American common law or Jewish traditional law (Halacha). These legal codes are flexible, responsive, and can be maintained without a large central state or legislative apparatus.

A small amount of private funding has just been committed to begin codifying the Xeer. While the Xeerada (plural) appear to vary from tribe to tribe, it is only because each contains mythology particular to its tribe. In essence, the Xeerada are alike in protecting freedom of movement, free trade, and other individual freedoms, and forbidding the contrary-including taxation and legislation.

The Somali nation did not start with the tribes having a common language but by their common observance of the Xeer. Hence the law is called both father and child of the Somali nation.

A society organized strictly in accordance with the Xeer is technically a “kritarchy,” as opposed to a democracy, theocracy, monarchy, oligarchy, or other form of political government. The term, a little-used nineteenth-century word compounded from the Greek, literally means “rule by judges.” ~~Spencer Heath MacCallum

Libertarians sought to establish a Kritarchy to ensure that the RULE OF LAW would be enforced, as opposed to the Anarchy prevalent at the time.

Kritarchy" is the sort of Government that God established in Levite Israel ~~ Nonsense. The written law wasn't abolished and the word of God wasn't abandoned.

AGAIN you display your stunning ignorance, on parade for all to see. Of course Levite Israel was a Kritarchy.

Many stateless societies have been kritarchies, including the well-known example of the Old Testament Jews during the time of the Judges. The proposed free enclaves also would be kritarchies, since they would be founded solely on the principles of successful modern commerce and the traditional Xeer. ~~ Spencer Heath MacCallum

Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny established in Somaliland ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe ~~ another false quote.

Bollocks. "Ganesha's" #118 directly linked the Somaliland Constitution, a totalitarian document condemning that State to Shari'ah Islamic Tyranny.

And what did YOU say about this establishment of yet another Islamofascist Shari'ah Tyranny? ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe YOUR words. YOUR direct response to #118.

YOUR hatred against Liberty and Americanism, has led you openly celebrate the establishment of more breeding grounds of Islamofascism, and spit on the blood of your murdered fellow-countrymen.

And you have the gall to use Free Republic bandwidth to sing the praises of these Islamofascists.

[#3Fan]

Libertarians are not interested in killing people merely for holding the wrong opinions.

You took me too literal.

Frankly, such behavior is characteristic of, shall we say, "non-libertarian" Political Movements. And you know it, #3Fan... no offense meant, but it really is a Bearing of False Witness, to insinuate that we Libertarians would "stone you to death" for holding errant political opinions. It's a Lie, a violation of the Ninth Commandment. It isn't necessary, nor funny. Why would you even bother? I never said anything so vile and slanderous about you, you know.

Good gosh, are you from the same place as nopardons? LOL Lighten up, people.

[Roscoe]

Kritarchy is premised upon the existence of Law.

The law of the jungle, perhaps.

"One basic feature of kritarchy is that the judicial, police and law-generating powers are dispersed among the population. Any person is free to establish a court of justice or a police force. The activities of judges and policemen are coordinated by the competitive market process rather than by a supreme court and police minister. The laws of a kritarchy are not contrived, but are discovered by judges in the course of resolving conflicts that come before them."

Libertarians praising kritarchy.

Kritarchy is the abandonment of written law and its replacement with the ad hoc imposition of cult philosophy by self-appointed "judges."

Somaliland

It's the Somali Islamist movement al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya (“Islamic Unity”) that has been placed of our administration's list of terrorist organizations.

How many American servicemen did the Somalis murder and drag through the streets of their almost "ideal anarchy?" Seventeen, wasn't it?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You took me too literal. ~~ Good gosh, are you from the same place as nopardons? LOL Lighten up, people.

No, I understood that you were "joking". I understand that you do not actually believe that Libertarians want to kill you for holding erroneous political opinions.

I didn't miss the "joke", I'm just making a point about Moral Civility.

Not every "joke" conforms to a Christian standard of Charity... for example, "joking" that your opponents are murderers may be flippant... but it is still, unfortunately, Blood Libel. And no matter how "flippantly" you phrase it, a Blood Libel can never be a Christian form of Humor.

That is why I, for example, don't "joke" that you want to murder me for being a Libertarian. I would be "kidding", of course; I would be "flippant"; in the right circumstance, it might even "get a laugh" from the peanut gallery.

And I would still be Blood Libelling you, all the same.

I'm not doubting the fact that you were "joking". I'm just saying that no matter how "kidding", how whimsical, how flippant... a Christian can never morally use blood libel as a form of "humor".

This isn't a question of legalism, but of Christian charity.
WWJD?? -- The only people whom Jesus ever insinuated might be murderers -- WERE murderers. He bore no False Witness, even "jokingly".

Just think about it, that's all I'm saying.

[BureaucratusMaximus]

I'd immediately be stoned to death in a Libertarian nation because I don't believe hard drugs should be legal

I wouldn't stone you. If a person wants to get stoned(no pun intended) and be responsible for the consequences of his action...(meaning you or I or anyone pays for it AND it does not violate the rights of anyone else) let him be, and let it be his own business.

The Libertarian view on drugs has such a "shock" value because nowadays, personal responsibility is nearly absent from todays society.

[BureaucratusMaximus]

pays=doesnt have to pay

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Kritarchy is the abandonment of written law and its replacement with the ad hoc imposition of cult philosophy by self-appointed "judges."

Lies from the God-hating Roscoe. Kritarchy is the sort of Government established by GOD in Levite Israel.

A society organized strictly in accordance with the Xeer is technically a “kritarchy,” as opposed to a democracy, theocracy, monarchy, oligarchy, or other form of political government. The term, a little-used nineteenth-century word compounded from the Greek, literally means “rule by judges.” Many stateless societies have been kritarchies, including the well-known example of the Old Testament Jews during the time of the Judges. The proposed free enclaves also would be kritarchies, since they would be founded solely on the principles of successful modern commerce and the traditional Xeer. ~~ Spencer Heath MacCallum

Just because you hate God and his Institutions, does not give you the right to vomit your hatred for God all over Free Republic and sing the praises of Islamofascists.

It's the Somali Islamist movement al-Ittihad al-Islamiyya (“Islamic Unity”) that has been placed of our administration's list of terrorist organizations. How many American servicemen did the Somalis murder and drag through the streets of their almost "ideal anarchy?" Seventeen, wasn't it?

Yes, a pity that Anti-Libertarians like yourself opposed Libertarian attempts to bring Kritarchy and the RULE OF LAW to that complete anarchy and bring an end to Tribal Violence. You could care less if Anarchy reigns and US soldiers are killed, as long as you succeed in foiling Libertarian attempts to bring the RULE OF LAW to Somalia.

After all, your sociopathic hatred for Liberty and Americanism is well-evidenced by the Pro-Islamofascist statements you have made on this thread:

---

• FACT: -- “Ganesha” posted a Link to the Somaliland Constitution. LINK

• FACT -- The Somaliland Constitution enslaved that benighted Country as yet another Repressive Shari'ah Islamic Tyranny.... and you, Roscoe, applaud this.LINK:
  Constitution of Somaliland

  Article 5: Religion
  1. Islam is the religion of the nation, and the promotion of any religion in the territory of Somaliland, other than Islam, is prohibited.
  2. The laws of the nation shall be grounded on, and shall not be valid if they are contrary to Islamic Sharia.
  3. The state shall promote religious tenets (religious affairs), and shall fulfil Sharia principles and discourage immoral acts and reprehensible behaviour.
  4. The calendar shall be the Islamic Calendar based on the hijra and the Gregorian Calendar.

• FACT: Upon learning of the establishment of a Repressive Shari’ah Islamic Tyranny in Somaliland, Roscoe gave his unreserved blessing to the establishment of yet another breeding ground of Islamofascism -- because at least they’re not Libertarians!! LINK
  (Islamic Shari’ah Tyranny established in Somaliland)
  ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe -- YOUR words, Roscoe. YOUR direct response to “ganesha’s” #118.

• FACT: In your sociopathic hatred against Liberty and Americanism, Roscoe, you openly celebrate the establishment of more breeding grounds of Islamofascism, and spit on the blood of your murdered fellow-countrymen. And you have the gall to use Free Republic bandwidth to sing the praises of these Islamofascists. Some dare call it Treason.

---

Fifth Columnist Disruptors like "Roscoe" who openly celebrate the establishment of a Repressive Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny in Somaliland are a treasonous poison to Free Republic.

[ganesha]

The Rights of the Individual, Fundamental Freedoms and the Duties of the Citizen


Article 21: Implementation and Interpretation


1. The legislative, executive and judicial branches of the state and the local government of the regions and the districts of the Republic of Somaliland, of all levels, shall be bound by the provisions of this Part.

2. The articles which relate to fundamental rights and freedoms shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the international conventions on human rights and international laws referred to in this Constitution.

Article 22: Political, Economic, Social and Electoral Rights

1. Every citizen shall have the right to participate in the political, economic, social and cultural affairs in accordance with the laws and the Constitution.

2. Every citizen who fulfils the requirements of the law shall have the right to be elected (to an office) and to vote.

Article 23: Freedom of Movement and Association

1. Every person who is a citizen or lawfully resident in the country shall be free to move to or settle at any place of his choice, or leave or return to the country at will.

2. The matters (rights) set out in Clause 1 of this Article are subject to any law which forbids the movement to or settlement at specific places or during specific times.

3. All citizens shall have the right to form, in accordance with the law, political, educational, cultural, social, occupational or employees’ associations.

4. Associations with objectives which are contrary to the public interest or are secret or are military in nature or armed or are otherwise against the law, whatever their outward appearance might be, are prohibited.

Article 24: The Right to Life, Security of the Person, Respect for Reputations and Crimes against Human Rights

1. Human life is the gift of Allah and is beyond price. Every person has the right to life, and shall only be deprived of life if convicted in a court of an offence in which the sentence laid down by law is death.

2. Every person shall have the right to security of his person. Physical punishment and any other injury to the person is prohibited.

3. Every person shall have the right to have his dignity, reputation and private life respected.

4. Crimes against human rights such as torture, extra-judicial killings, mutilation and other similar acts shall have no limitation periods.

Article 25: The Right to Liberty, Guarantees and the Conditions of Rights and Freedoms

1. No person shall be deprived of his liberty except in accordance with the law.

2. No person may be arrested, searched, or detained, except in the case of flagranto delicto, or on the issue of a reasoned arrest warrant by a competent judge.

3. The state shall guarantee to all citizens the rights and freedoms and the punishment for any of their infringements shall be determined by law.

4. The freedoms of the person shall not override the laws protecting the national interest, the security of the country or the rights of other individuals.

Article 26: Crime and Punishment

1. Crimes and (their) punishment shall be laid down by the law, and no punishment shall be administered in a manner which is contrary to the law.

2. The liability for the punishment of any crime shall be confined to the offender only.

3. An accused person is innocent until proven guilty in a court.

Article 27: The Rights of Persons Deprived of their Liberty

1. Any person who is deprived of his liberty has a right to meet as soon as possible his legal representative, relatives or any other persons he asks for.

2. Any person who is deprived of his liberty because of alleged criminal offences shall have the right to be brought before a court within 48 (forty eight) hours of his arrest.

3. No person shall be compelled to proffer a confession, a witness statement or testimony under oath. Any such matters (evidence) obtained under duress shall be void.

4. No person shall be detained in a place which is not determined by law.

5. The law shall lay down the maximum period in which a person can be detained in custody pending investigations.

6. Any accused person who is convicted by a court shall have the right to appeal to a higher court.

7. When a person is detained in custody or his detention is extended, he shall have the right to have his status communicated to any person he so chooses.

8. Prisons are for reform and correction. The state is responsible for the rehabilitation and skills training of prisoners so that they can return to society with reformed characters.

9. The punishment for the infringement of Clauses 1 to 7 of this Article shall be determined by law.

Article 28: Right to Sue and Defend

1. Every person shall have the right to institute proceedings in a competent court in accordance with the law.

2. Every person shall have the right to defend himself in a court.

3. The state shall provide free legal defence in matters which are determined by the law, and court fees may be waived for the indigent.

Article 29: The Sanctity of the Home

The home and other dwellings shall be inviolable, and their surveillance, search and entry shall not be allowed without a reasoned order from a judge. Any such order must be read properly to the proprietor or occupier before entry is effected. It is prohibited for any person carrying out a search to contravene the order of the judge.

Article 30: Freedom of Communication

No person’s private written communication, postal letters, or telecommunications shall be interfered with except in
matters in which the law allows their investigation, tracing or listening in and a reasoned order from a judge has been
obtained.

Article 31: The Right to Own Private Property

1. Every person shall have the right to own private property, provided that it is acquired lawfully.

2. Private property acquired lawfully shall not be expropriated except for reasons of public interest and provided that proper compensation is paid.

3. The law shall determine matters that are within the public interest, which may bring about the expropriation of private property.

Article 32: Freedom of Public Demonstration, Expression of Opinion, Press and other Media

1. Every citizen shall have the freedom, in accordance with the law, to express his opinions orally, visually, artistically or in writing or in any other way.

2. Every citizen shall have the freedom, in accordance with the law, to organise or participate in any peaceful assembly or demonstration.

3. The press and other media are part of the fundamental freedoms of expression and are independent. All acts to subjugate them are prohibited, and a law shall determine their regulation.

Article 33: Freedom of Belief

1. Every person shall have the right to freedom of belief, and shall not be compelled to adopt another belief. Islamic
Sharia does not accept that a Muslim person can renounce his beliefs.

2. The Mosque is a blessed place and deserves veneration. It is the place for preaching religion and for providing the nation guidance in spiritual and temporal matters, and the preaching therein of matters which would divide the nation (sedition) is prohibited. The state shall be responsible for its general protection and any practicable support.

Article 34: The Duties of the Citizen

1. Every citizen shall have the duty, in accordance with the law, to strengthen the unity of the nation, the protection of the sovereignty of the state, and the defence of the country and the religion.

2. Every person has the duty to respect the Constitution and the laws of the country.

3. Every person has the duty to pay promptly his taxes and other duties as imposed under the law.

4. Every person shall have the duty to care for, protect and save the environment.

5. The law shall determine the punishment for failure to fulfil the duties imposed in Clauses 1 to 4 (of this Article).

Article 35: Extradition of Accused and Convicted Persons and Political Asylum

1. Any foreigner who enters the country lawfully or is lawfully resident in the country and who requests political asylum may be accorded asylum if he fulfils the conditions set out in the law governing asylum.

2. The extradition of a Somaliland citizen to another country is prohibited.

3. The Republic of Somaliland may extradite to their countries convicted or accused foreigners if there is a treaty between the Republic of Somaliland and the country requesting their extradition.

Article 36: The Rights of Women

1. The rights, freedoms and duties laid down in the Constitution are to be enjoyed equally by men and women save for matters which are specifically ordained in Islamic Sharia.

2. The Government shall encourage, and shall legislate for[15], the right of women to be free of practices which are contrary to Sharia and which are injurious to their person and dignity.

3. Women have the right to own, manage, oversee, trade in, or pass on property in accordance with the law.

4. In order to raise the level of education and income of women, and also the welfare of the family, women shall have the right to have extended to them education in home economics and to have opened for them vocational, special skills and adult education schools.

Do you really consider this to be tyranny???
I see quite a few libertarian freedoms here. Let's consider the situation that existed. Somalila had anarchy because there was a civil war. Anarchy meant the abscence of a government, not atheism, the abscence of religion. The overwhelming majority of the population is muslim and has been for hundreds of years. This guy could no more do an Ann Coulter and make everybody convert to Christianity than he could establish a government with only a Judiciary and no legislative or executive branches of government. They also had to give a role to the tribal elders because that was a reality which existed on the ground. Given these compromises, they did manage to write some western civil liberties into the constitution. For that part of the world that is no small achievement. It is not that much different from what Conservative Dude is proposing except that he would prefer Puritan Christianity to Islam. A state which accomodates Islam is not the same thing as an Islamic state which is ruled by a Caliph. It also does not conform to Sharia in every respect. The ban on physical punishment in article 24 section 2 makes some of the penalties prescibed by the Qur'an and Hadith unenforcable. You would not have the right to convert others to Christianity but you would at least be free to practice Christianity yourself which is better than most Muslim countries. People in Zimbabwe would be grateful to live in a place which had a right to private ownership of property. He may not have gotten everything he wanted, but I don't think the Libertarian guy died in vain.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

He may not have gotten everything he wanted, but I don't think the Libertarian guy died in vain.

Trouble is, The Somaliland Constitution makes all "freedoms" and "legal rights" VOID if they conflict with Shari'ah.

Article 5: Religion
1. Islam is the religion of the nation, and the promotion of any religion in the territory of Somaliland, other than Islam, is prohibited.
2. The laws of the nation shall be grounded on, and shall not be valid if they are contrary to Islamic Sharia.

The Libertarian did not die in vain? Perhaps not; he might have succeeded in helping some Somalis avoid starving to death (much to Roscoe's dismay), but his death prior to the implementation of kritarchy Government has allowed sociopaths like Roscoe to crow happily about Libertarian "failure", and sing the praises of the Islamic Shari'ah State which was established instead.

[#3Fan]

the New Zealand plan sounds like what happened in Texas...there was always a group for independence from Mexico, and among those some wanted immediate US annexation, others wanted just independence.

They may have done well for a while. Eventually we would've had a war over slavery though and Texas probably would've aligned with the Confederacy and we would've taken them in as spoils of war. Maybe, maybe not. If they would've guaged the industrial power of the North and realized the North was going to win they may have chosen to sit out though.

The State of New Zealand, or as you put it, Republican New Zealand is conceptually very interesting indeed.

Something of that nature isn't necessary yet, but what if the corruption of the Democrats isn't halted? I remembered being shocked at their blatant lies, now I've come to expect lies from them. Then I was shocked that they were aligned with the mafia. Then I was shocked that they would support a man who committed rape and racketeering for president when we kicked a guy out of office for a two-bit breaking and entering. Then I was shocked that the Democrats didn't care that nuclear technology was given to our most probable enemy...China. That threatens everyone but the Dems still call him the greatest president. Then I was shocked that the Democrats would kick our very foundation of our constitutional republic in the teeth with their voter fraud but a majority of the American people aren't getting too upset about that either. So what's next? Will Americans smile and look the other way when political enemies are lined up and shot, or maybe it'll be Christians being lined up? Maybe they'll say they deserved it, just like those kids in Waco since their parents dared to disrespect the BATF. Maybe CFR was the beginning. What's going to be the penalty for violating the limitations on speech? It seems we've been climbing a ladder of corruption and those are the next rungs. I'm beginning to believe all this trouble is caused by unselective immigration. We let people come here that will have a high probability of staying on the Democratic plantation. The trouble is, those people have no concept of freedom, they're just coming here for the $ signs.

It's attractive, so long as I get to play the role of Sam Houston, rather than Davy Crocket (remember the Alamo?).

I've postulated an exodus, do I get to be Moses? LOL Perish the thought, Moses was much more righteous than me.

At any rate, America would implode if 20 million Republicans left, that's for sure. No protection. No one working. No one literate. No one doing charity. No fathers. The America left behind simply would fall into the abyss.

The balance is so close that a few percentage of Republicans exiting this country would indeed turn this country over to the corrupt Democrats and I'd hate to see what would happen. Look at what Clinton did in his 8 years. It's a wonder we haven't been nuked by China or N. Korea yet.

Re: Costa Rica. I'm nervous about things like water, food, basic health provisions. Where are they on that?

Plus that latitude thing. I think Plato was onto something about certain latitudes building character.

Finally, I'm not sure I want a libertarian state - so long as we are dreaming up Utopia on paper - but more like a Puritan state. This is not going to make the libertarians happy. Keep in mind that the Puritans had considerably more economic freedom than we have and would certainly look very libertarian. But they also covenanted with God and asked His blessing if they honored him. I am convinced that He gave it. I'm convinced that He would do it again.

In my opinion, the Phoenician empires were libertarian empires. Although they believed in their gods, they kept to themselves and refused to get involved with other countries except to do business and business only. Of course philanthropic nations were hard to come by back then but still when I read of the Phoenicians, I think "Libertarians". Tyre and Zidon lost God's protection and fell into the dustbin of history. A bad omen for any future Libertarian society.

But I'm not sure where to start....

It isn't going to get going with just 20 people on a website thread but a few more rungs up the corruption ladder and it may become an unstoppable event. Like I said If someone would've told me in 1992 of the corruption of the Democrats of the period between 1993 and 2002 and that the American people wouldn't care and that they would even applaud some of it, I never would've believed it. We seem to be on a fast-track to somewhere.

[Roscoe]

Your suggestion that Libertarians are looking for the establishment of Old Testament law in the almost "ideal anarchy" of Somolia is absurd.

"The laws of a kritarchy are not contrived, but are discovered by judges in the course of resolving conflicts that come before them."

That's a call for Kangaroo Courts.

(Islamic Shari’ah Tyranny established in Somaliland) ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe

You posted that false quote once before.

[#3Fan]

OK.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your suggestion that Libertarians are looking for the establishment of Old Testament law in the almost "ideal anarchy" of Somolia is absurd. ~~ "The laws of a kritarchy are not contrived, but are discovered by judges in the course of resolving conflicts that come before them." ~~ That's a call for Kangaroo Courts.

That's a call for the importance of Judicial Rulings in establishing ongoing legal Precedent, you obtuse illiterate.

(Islamic Shari’ah Tyranny established in Somaliland) ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe ~~ You posted that false quote once before.

It's NOT a "false quote", and you know it. It is your EXACT response to Ganesha's #118, which linked the Islamic Shari'ah Somaliland Constitution.

The details are here for all to see:

---

• FACT: -- “Ganesha” posted a Link to the Somaliland Constitution. LINK

• FACT -- The Somaliland Constitution enslaved that benighted Country as yet another Repressive Shari'ah Islamic Tyranny.... and you, Roscoe, applaud this.LINK:
  Constitution of Somaliland

  Article 5: Religion
  1. Islam is the religion of the nation, and the promotion of any religion in the territory of Somaliland, other than Islam, is prohibited.
  2. The laws of the nation shall be grounded on, and shall not be valid if they are contrary to Islamic Sharia.
  3. The state shall promote religious tenets (religious affairs), and shall fulfil Sharia principles and discourage immoral acts and reprehensible behaviour.
  4. The calendar shall be the Islamic Calendar based on the hijra and the Gregorian Calendar.

• FACT: Upon learning of the establishment of a Repressive Shari’ah Islamic Tyranny in Somaliland, Roscoe gave his unreserved blessing to the establishment of yet another breeding ground of Islamofascism -- because at least they’re not Libertarians!! LINK
  (Islamic Shari’ah Tyranny established in Somaliland)
  ~~Something to be glad for. 134 posted on 10/24/02 12:08 AM Pacific by Roscoe -- YOUR words, Roscoe. YOUR direct response to “ganesha’s” #118.

• FACT: In your sociopathic hatred against Liberty and Americanism, Roscoe, you openly celebrate the establishment of more breeding grounds of Islamofascism, and spit on the blood of your murdered fellow-countrymen. And you have the gall to use Free Republic bandwidth to sing the praises of these Islamofascists. Some dare call it Treason.

---

Fifth Columnist Disruptors like "Roscoe" who openly celebrate the establishment of a Repressive Islamic Shari'ah Tyranny in Somaliland are a treasonous poison to Free Republic.

[#3Fan]

I wouldn't stone you. If a person wants to get stoned(no pun intended) and be responsible for the consequences of his action...(meaning you or I or anyone pays for it AND it does not violate the rights of anyone else) let him be, and let it be his own business.

Too many can't keep it to themselves.