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To: donh
This is not exactly a minor tract in the history of the US Constitution.

You are right about that. Common Sense was not any part of the history of the Constitution, it was part of the history of the American Revolution, an entirely separate event in American history. Neither Paine nor Jefferson, whatever their otherwise considerable influence on our nation's history, was a founder, in the narrow sense, since neither one participated in the Constitutional Convention, or even directly participated in the debates in the ratification conventions.

The word "disestablishmentarian" was coined to describe these two men

Afraid not, disestablishentarian was coined to describe members of an unsuccessful British political movement to 'disestablish' the Church of England in Britain. After these two howlers, I am afraid that your historical analysis can not be taken seriously.

189 posted on 09/10/2002 2:37:24 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
You are right about that. Common Sense was not any part of the history of the Constitution, it was part of the history of the American Revolution

I see. So there's no intellectual connection between the American Revolution and the American Constitution. What have you been smoking?

205 posted on 09/11/2002 3:39:43 PM PDT by donh
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
I see you have mistaken nit-picking for answering the argument put to you--your contention that Madison's thoughts, in particular, need have no bearing on the writing of the 1st amendment is too absurd for words. In what manner did you come to the conclusion that only certain documents you are privy to constitute the thoughts of the founders?

The first amendment has two clauses respecting religion: the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. Do you contend that the original intent was identical for both? If not, what right do you think was being established by the Establishment clause that's distinct from the Free Exercise Clause? Why do you think the original signers thought they had to say the same thing twice? Why aren't there other examples of this rather careless habit other places in the Bill of Rights?

As with the gun control freaks who can't understand the straightforward and consistent nature of the Bill of Rights--it's not that you're right, it's not that you're wrong--it's that you aren't even in the game.

from: "The Establishment Clause" by Leonard Levy

The history of the drafting of the establishment clause does not provide us with an understanding of what was meant by “an establishment of religion.” To argue, however, as proponents of a narrow interpretation do, that the amendment permits congressional aid and support to religion in general or to all denominations without discrimination, leads to the impossible conclusion that the First Amendment added to Congress’s power. Nothing supports such a conclusion. Every bit of evidence goes to prove that the First Amendment, like the others, was intended to restrict Congress to its enumerated powers. Because Congress possessed no power under the Constitution to legislate on matters concerning religion, Congress has no such power even in the absence of the First Amendment. It is therefore unreasonable, even fatuous, to believe that an express prohibition of power—“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”—vests or creates the power, previously nonexistent, of supporting religion by aid to all religious groups. The Bill of Rights, as Madison said, was not framed “to imply powers not meant to be included in the enumeration.”

I have before me my worn copies of "Original Meaning" by Rakove and "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution" by Bailyn. Both are Pulitzer Prize winning examples of exemplary scholarship on this matter.

I direct your attention to Bailyn pp 96-99, from which I briefly quote: "...fear of the conjunction of civil and ecclesiastical tyrannies was central to John Adam's understanding of American history and the revolutionary crisis..." (this from Samuel Adams) and to Rakove p 310 from which I briefly quote Madison's own words concerning his education: "under very early and strong impressions in favor of liberty both civil and religeous"

Madison caused the Virginia Bill of Rights of 1776 to be altered from the anemic "The fullest toleration..." to "all men are equally entitled..." for the very stated purpose of preventing such things as the ecumenical assessments of the 1780's which is more famous (at least, to the Supreme Court) for opposing.

How anyone in their right mind can think that the establishment clause means anything other than what it most obviously says, taken in context with the government-limiting reason for the Bill of Rights, strains my capacity for astonishment--and yet it continues to crop up. Sometimes I dispair for the republic.

207 posted on 09/11/2002 7:45:53 PM PDT by donh
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