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Cobb (County, GA) dads enter fray over evolution in schools
Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 9.8.02 | MARY MacDONALD

Posted on 09/07/2002 7:55:51 PM PDT by mhking

Larry Taylor
Jeffrey Selman
[ The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 9/7/02 ]

Cobb dads enter fray over evolution in schools

By MARY MacDONALD
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

When Jeffrey Selman learned the Cobb County public schools had put disclaimers on evolution in thousands of science books, he skipped his usual outlet, a letter of protest.

The 56-year-old computer programmer sued the district to remove the textbook stickers. And he is ready to broaden the suit's scope if the school board allows science teachers to discuss what he sees as faith-based alternatives to evolution.

"I saw something wrong, and I went after it," Selman said.

Five miles away, in another east Cobb neighborhood, Larry Taylor had his own visceral reaction to the debate over science and religion.

Well-read and articulate, Taylor grew tired of seeing critics of evolution dismissed as uneducated rubes.

The construction manager attended his first school board meeting two weeks ago to urge members to require teachers to expose flaws in evolution.

"If it raises tough questions in the classroom, that's why they're there," Taylor said.

The men, both fathers of students in east Cobb schools, inserted themselves into a fray that neither expected would turn national. Both have found the attention unsettling. They worry about the impact on their families and will not disclose the names of their wives or children. Both screen phone calls. But neither regrets taking a public stance on an issue that has divided Cobb and drawn national media attention.

The board vote on instruction policy is set for Sept. 26.

Selman: I'm a patriot|

The division among parents is unprecedented, said board Chairman Curt Johnston, who is receiving 15 messages a day, divided on either side. "This is the most difficult and polarized debate the board has had since I've been on the board," he said. "Right now, we're just listening."

Selman, the plaintiff in a lawsuit filed against the district by the American Civil Liberties Union, said his decision to seek court intervention took perhaps "half a second." A transplanted New Yorker, Selman wants people to know he believes in God. A practicing Jew, he attends temple several times a year. He does not want to be equated with the California atheist whose challenge of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance drew national scorn.

Selman describes his lawsuit as a patriotic action, stopping a move toward government-sanctioned religion. While the textbook advisories are vague, Selman and many other parents think the school board discussions that produced the inserts reflect a conservative Christian intent.

The advisories were approved after the board heard about two dozen parents protest the teaching of evolution, many on religious grounds. They produced a petition signed by nearly 2,000 parents who demanded accurate science texts. Many petitions circulated in Cobb churches.

A counterpetition is now circulating among pro-evolution parents, who will demand that the board maintain "traditional academic standards and integrity in the sciences."

Selman isn't sure what sparked the anti-evolution movement in Cobb, a county he and his wife chose nearly 10 years ago based on the good reputation of its schools. He thinks the board is pandering to a small group of parents. His own actions have produced a few dozen phone calls to his home, more supportive than not.

"This is one battleground," said Selman, who has a child in elementary school. "I'm sure they're not going to stop at this. The next thing, the moment of silence is going to be attacked, which is a beautiful piece of compromise."

Nancy Myers, a co-worker, wasn't surprised that Selman became involved in the dispute. "He's got a hot justice button," she said. "When he sees wrong being done, he wants to do something about it. I'd call him principled."

Although Selman thinks his lawsuit will squash any attempt to dilute evolution, he suspects the board policy will open classrooms to religious-based instruction. "The side for scientific education was asleep," he said. "We felt safe. This is the 21st century, for crying out loud. We can't go back to this."

Taylor: Teach all facts|

Taylor, 41, moved to Cobb as a child and was educated in its public schools. But like Selman, he now questions whether the county schools live up to their generally good reputation. He has two daughters and a son, in middle and high school.

While he disagrees with biological evolution, Taylor will not identify himself as a creationist or an advocate of "intelligent design," which argues that the diversity of life is the result of some master plan by an unidentified "designer."

But Taylor has read "Darwin's Black Box," a challenge of evolution by a biochemist at Lehigh University, and a stack of other books that question evolution. He has given copies to friends and co-workers.

Taylor believes these critiques, many written by scientists if not biologists, are being ignored unfairly by public school teachers and the media. "The media presents it as the educated scientists vs. the religious, fanatical extremists."

He was particularly angered when science teachers told the Cobb school board that criticism of evolution was based in religion.

"All the facts should be taught in the science class," he said. "There are many credible scientists in America who believe evolution has many flaws."

Taylor attends his church, Trinity Fellowship in west Cobb, twice weekly. The Rev. Richard Hemphill said the church had not become involved with the evolution dispute. Taylor has spoken out before, taking a position against abortion in a letter published in a newspaper. His pastor is not surprised to see him take a stance on something that affects his family.

"When he talks about an issue, he has studied it thoroughly," Hemphill said.

Parents and teachers who dismiss views opposing evolution are practicing their own form of religion, Taylor said. He insists intelligent design is not a faith-based approach.

"The supporters of evolution have an agenda as well. Their agenda is to keep God out, even if the evidence points to God. . . . It's faith. Those people are as fervent in their beliefs as Christians are in believing God created Earth."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: aclu
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To: Aric2000
This whole thing kind of sticks in your craw, doesn't it?

I do not believe that fantasy and religion should be taught in a publicly funded classroom, PERIOD.

Guess we need to get rid of classical literature as well? After all, it's all fantasy, right? No need to read The Illiad or The Odyssey. We can get rid of Wilson Rawls Where The Red Fern Grows, and all that Dr. Seuss garbage as well.

21 posted on 09/08/2002 10:11:12 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob
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To: MedicalMess
If it were not for evolution FACT and it's parameters I would not have been able to predict, test and verify the presence of these pathogens. PCR-DNA tests don't lie and I have cured a dozen incurable diseases.

PCR-DNA tests have nothing whatsoever to do with the theory of Natural Selection. You'd think that they would have taught you that it med school. The founder of genetics, himself a Catholic priest, did not believe in natural selection, so your assertion that they are somehow connected is ludicrous.

22 posted on 09/08/2002 10:19:55 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Aric2000
OK, so the theory of gravity, is faith based then as well? Or the theory of calculus, mathematics, etc, all scientific findings are called theories.

As you may have heard, there is no 'theory of gravity'. There is however, a 'law of gravity'. The existence of gravity is not in doubt. IMO the existence of evolution is not in doubt. The mechanism of evolution by natural selection is a theory, and requires a faith in materialism, since it assumes that direction is not a possibility. This has not been proven, and probably can never be proven. It requires a proof that God does not exist.

23 posted on 09/08/2002 10:27:58 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Aric2000
I do not believe that fantasy and religion should be taught in a publicly funded classroom, PERIOD.

In a way, I agree with you. It is my belief that after a period of transition, participation in public education in any way should be punished by execution. Only private and religious education should be permitted. Public schools are a pernicious evil, in part because it permits folks like you to attempt to impose their prejudices by force upon the population. I do believe that this private and religious education should be financed by the government.

24 posted on 09/08/2002 10:31:58 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Bob,

You need to get a life and quit trying to pervert what I say to mean something that I don't. That is a liberal trick and not what I would call real logical. You're running on emotion and it shows.
25 posted on 09/08/2002 10:55:42 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
YOu need to figure out what he's talking about, you should never debate with someone that knows more then you do, it just makes you look foolish.

Fact of the matter is that biologists and chemists of all sorts use evolution and macro evolution to help them in their work. It has saved thousands of peoples lives due to the finding of cures through the theory that you like to try and debunk.
26 posted on 09/08/2002 10:57:28 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Actually, you need to provide proof that god exists, not that he doesn't exist. You cannot prove a double negative.

Your logical thought is failing as usual.

Get some logic and come back and we'll debate some more.
27 posted on 09/08/2002 10:59:13 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Aric2000
Actually, you need to provide proof that god exists, not that he doesn't exist.

I do not need logical proof in a democratic society. All I need is majority support. The number of committed atheists is about 1%. You lose.

28 posted on 09/08/2002 11:04:53 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Aric2000
Fact of the matter is that biologists and chemists of all sorts use evolution and macro evolution to help them in their work. It has saved thousands of peoples lives due to the finding of cures through the theory that you like to try and debunk.

No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it does not become true. It did not work out for Joseph Goebbels in the long run, it will not work for you.

29 posted on 09/08/2002 11:07:26 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
I think School vouchers are a great way to get this whole thing worked out. It's called school choice.

BUT, I do not want my children being taught creationism alongside evolution, like they are somehow equal. If I want them taught creationism then I will send them to private school for that FAITH based education that you seem so fond of.

I am not fond of either option, this is why I homeschool, and I think that if I make that choice, then the government should just LEAVE me the hell alone. I don't want their money, you know why? because it gives them control over my children. These are my children and I am responsible for their education, not them, not you, not anyone.

I have chosen to teach them facts, therefore they are taught evolution and if some crackpot tried to come in and teach them some faith based creationism, I would be taking someones head off at the shoulders. namely said creationist.

If I want to teach them creationism, that is my choice, NOT yours, NOT the schools, MINE. The school teaches facts and science, not the creationism myth out of some holy book. It is YOUR job as a parent to teach your children that at home, where it will NOT effect the choice of other parents.

IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO TEACH THEM CREATIONISM, if that is your choice, NOT THE SCHOOLS. The SCHOOLS TEACH SCIENCE, NOT MYTH.
30 posted on 09/08/2002 11:08:24 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Did I say that I was an atheist, where did I say I was an atheist? Show me where I said that I was an atheist.

I see, so if I somehow get a majority to decide that you need to be killed, well then, that would be OK, because a majority of us decided that that is what was needed? Democracy, such a wonderful thing, NOT!! THis a republic, NOT a democracy, and no matter how many time you repeat the lie that this is a democracy, it will never make it true.
31 posted on 09/08/2002 11:11:10 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
YOu need to get out and read more, there are many discoveries being made every day. YOU are the one repeating the lies of creationists, NOT I!!
32 posted on 09/08/2002 11:11:53 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Aric2000
To repeat, I believe that all public school teachers, after a period of transition, should be put to death, if they remain recalcitrant. You can teach your child your fantasies, and I will teach mine the Truth.
33 posted on 09/08/2002 11:13:12 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Aric2000
I am sorry, I do not deal with Birchers, too treacherous.
34 posted on 09/08/2002 11:14:16 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Aric2000
Did I say that I was an atheist, where did I say I was an atheist?

A good working definition of an atheist is that an atheist is someone who does not adhere to the truth that God created the human race. You do not adhere to this truth, therefore you are an atheist, QED.

35 posted on 09/08/2002 11:16:20 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
I see, maybe you would be happier in a country like Saudi Arabia or Iran. My consitution says that there is freedom of speech and religion in this country.

If you don't like it, perhaps you should leave.
36 posted on 09/08/2002 11:21:16 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Birchers? Treasonous? Sorry, when you start talking about a religious theocracy in this country, you are being the treasonous one.
37 posted on 09/08/2002 11:22:04 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Aric2000
Why do you hate God.
38 posted on 09/08/2002 11:22:23 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
At its root, this evolution bidness is about God not science. Evolutionary theory is simply the product of Darwin and others inability to reconcile and all-loving and omnipotent God with the waste and cruelty of nature. All they have are half-baked assumptions and are far...very far..from being scientific. Its theology in scientific dress.
39 posted on 09/08/2002 11:23:51 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Aric2000
Creation takes a HUGE amount of faith, you must believe that the bible is indeed the word of god, you must believe that god really cares enough to have created it in the first place, you must believe in all your heart that all of those words in the bible, rewritten and translated as they have been, have not been perverted or changed through that translation.

Christians believe that Jesus of Nazareth died and resurrected Himself, proving Himself to be God, the Creator of the Universe. Believing the rest isn't too hard.

BTW, Catholic scholars have for over a millennia stressed that creation as told in Genesis did not happen in six literal days. The Hebrew used for days in Genesis means era.

All of that takes a lot more faith then the theory of evolution, the theory of evolution is scientific,

Quasiscientific. No one can test evolution like one can test gravity, or properties of chemicals, or magnetism or the speed of sound. Evolution consists of finding a couple of bones and making huge extrapolations in order to fill in the blanks, which or more like Grand Canyon-sized chasms.

it is speculation based on scientific facts.

What facts?
40 posted on 09/08/2002 11:26:52 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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