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Cobb (County, GA) dads enter fray over evolution in schools
Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 9.8.02 | MARY MacDONALD

Posted on 09/07/2002 7:55:51 PM PDT by mhking

Larry Taylor
Jeffrey Selman
[ The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 9/7/02 ]

Cobb dads enter fray over evolution in schools

By MARY MacDONALD
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

When Jeffrey Selman learned the Cobb County public schools had put disclaimers on evolution in thousands of science books, he skipped his usual outlet, a letter of protest.

The 56-year-old computer programmer sued the district to remove the textbook stickers. And he is ready to broaden the suit's scope if the school board allows science teachers to discuss what he sees as faith-based alternatives to evolution.

"I saw something wrong, and I went after it," Selman said.

Five miles away, in another east Cobb neighborhood, Larry Taylor had his own visceral reaction to the debate over science and religion.

Well-read and articulate, Taylor grew tired of seeing critics of evolution dismissed as uneducated rubes.

The construction manager attended his first school board meeting two weeks ago to urge members to require teachers to expose flaws in evolution.

"If it raises tough questions in the classroom, that's why they're there," Taylor said.

The men, both fathers of students in east Cobb schools, inserted themselves into a fray that neither expected would turn national. Both have found the attention unsettling. They worry about the impact on their families and will not disclose the names of their wives or children. Both screen phone calls. But neither regrets taking a public stance on an issue that has divided Cobb and drawn national media attention.

The board vote on instruction policy is set for Sept. 26.

Selman: I'm a patriot|

The division among parents is unprecedented, said board Chairman Curt Johnston, who is receiving 15 messages a day, divided on either side. "This is the most difficult and polarized debate the board has had since I've been on the board," he said. "Right now, we're just listening."

Selman, the plaintiff in a lawsuit filed against the district by the American Civil Liberties Union, said his decision to seek court intervention took perhaps "half a second." A transplanted New Yorker, Selman wants people to know he believes in God. A practicing Jew, he attends temple several times a year. He does not want to be equated with the California atheist whose challenge of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance drew national scorn.

Selman describes his lawsuit as a patriotic action, stopping a move toward government-sanctioned religion. While the textbook advisories are vague, Selman and many other parents think the school board discussions that produced the inserts reflect a conservative Christian intent.

The advisories were approved after the board heard about two dozen parents protest the teaching of evolution, many on religious grounds. They produced a petition signed by nearly 2,000 parents who demanded accurate science texts. Many petitions circulated in Cobb churches.

A counterpetition is now circulating among pro-evolution parents, who will demand that the board maintain "traditional academic standards and integrity in the sciences."

Selman isn't sure what sparked the anti-evolution movement in Cobb, a county he and his wife chose nearly 10 years ago based on the good reputation of its schools. He thinks the board is pandering to a small group of parents. His own actions have produced a few dozen phone calls to his home, more supportive than not.

"This is one battleground," said Selman, who has a child in elementary school. "I'm sure they're not going to stop at this. The next thing, the moment of silence is going to be attacked, which is a beautiful piece of compromise."

Nancy Myers, a co-worker, wasn't surprised that Selman became involved in the dispute. "He's got a hot justice button," she said. "When he sees wrong being done, he wants to do something about it. I'd call him principled."

Although Selman thinks his lawsuit will squash any attempt to dilute evolution, he suspects the board policy will open classrooms to religious-based instruction. "The side for scientific education was asleep," he said. "We felt safe. This is the 21st century, for crying out loud. We can't go back to this."

Taylor: Teach all facts|

Taylor, 41, moved to Cobb as a child and was educated in its public schools. But like Selman, he now questions whether the county schools live up to their generally good reputation. He has two daughters and a son, in middle and high school.

While he disagrees with biological evolution, Taylor will not identify himself as a creationist or an advocate of "intelligent design," which argues that the diversity of life is the result of some master plan by an unidentified "designer."

But Taylor has read "Darwin's Black Box," a challenge of evolution by a biochemist at Lehigh University, and a stack of other books that question evolution. He has given copies to friends and co-workers.

Taylor believes these critiques, many written by scientists if not biologists, are being ignored unfairly by public school teachers and the media. "The media presents it as the educated scientists vs. the religious, fanatical extremists."

He was particularly angered when science teachers told the Cobb school board that criticism of evolution was based in religion.

"All the facts should be taught in the science class," he said. "There are many credible scientists in America who believe evolution has many flaws."

Taylor attends his church, Trinity Fellowship in west Cobb, twice weekly. The Rev. Richard Hemphill said the church had not become involved with the evolution dispute. Taylor has spoken out before, taking a position against abortion in a letter published in a newspaper. His pastor is not surprised to see him take a stance on something that affects his family.

"When he talks about an issue, he has studied it thoroughly," Hemphill said.

Parents and teachers who dismiss views opposing evolution are practicing their own form of religion, Taylor said. He insists intelligent design is not a faith-based approach.

"The supporters of evolution have an agenda as well. Their agenda is to keep God out, even if the evidence points to God. . . . It's faith. Those people are as fervent in their beliefs as Christians are in believing God created Earth."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: aclu
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To: donh
In this realm, you are not free to legislate as you damn well please just because you are a majority, unless you are overly fond of anarchy or tyranny

As a matter of fact, if I have a sufficiently large majority (a Constitutional majority), I can change every word in the Constitution and the Amendments, including, as an example, establishing a national religion. All it requires is 2/3's of each house of Congress, and 3/4's of the state legislatures.

261 posted on 09/12/2002 1:33:46 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: donh
Nothing about modern science precludes the existence of God. It would be nice if that respect were reciprocated toward modern biology.

I think you have drawn far more battle-lines than most Christians would. You are the one that says Science can't appear with God on the same page.

There is nothing wrong with a teacher presenting the origination of life by saying that some people believe that life started by itself in a mud puddle billions of years ago. Some people believe God made the mud puddle and caused the life. And some people believe that God created it all in seven days. Now class, what do you think?

262 posted on 09/12/2002 1:35:00 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: donh
the American Revolution and the production of the Bill of Rights are, indeed, the same event.

Funny thing, there were plenty of folks who supported the one, and not the other. They disagreed with you.

263 posted on 09/12/2002 1:35:55 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
I am a free American citizen. I get to label anything that I want to with any label that I want to. With a little luck, that will become the label that everyone uses, and earlier ones will be forgotten.

While I admire this quintessentially american sprit--what a rugged independent cuss you are--it doesn't really help much in addressing perplexing questions of the Commons, such as mandatory universal public schooling. Like humpty dumpty, a word means whatever you want it to mean? That works great until you are engaged in cooperative, reciprocal communities. Then, suddenly, objectively sharable meanings arising from historically commmon context and usage become vitally important. It is not useful for science to mean whatever you like, however much that tickles your fancy.

264 posted on 09/12/2002 1:43:52 PM PDT by donh
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Funny thing, there were plenty of folks who supported the one, and not the other. They disagreed with you.

There were plenty of folks who disagreed about individual amendments. To my knowledge, none of them therefore thought it was 10 discrete, unrelated documents. Thoughts do not occur in isolated containers. If one wants to know what original intent was, one must examine the intellectual anticedents of the event. Your position--that because we don't know what happened in secret meetings of a special committee of the congress, therefore the original intent was accomodation--is one mighty feeble excuse for an argument.

265 posted on 09/12/2002 1:51:53 PM PDT by donh
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To: donh
Tell you what, donh, I have been up now for over 16 hours, and we seem to be basically repeating ourselves here. I have also been participating in the soon to be war threads, and am beat. Why don't you come up with some new arguments, or we can just agree to disagree on this. I'll be sure to check back tomorrow.
266 posted on 09/12/2002 1:53:10 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: HairOfTheDog
I think you have drawn far more battle-lines than most Christians would. You are the one that says Science can't appear with God on the same page.

I did not say that. I only said God can't appear on the page labeled "science" at the top. And don't be kidding yourself about who is drawing battle lines. There is an acknowledged, indeed, celebrated, attempt afoot to undermine the naturalistic (for which a scientist might easily read "evidence-based" but which a creationist erroneously reads "god-rejecting") assumptions modern science needs to make to do its job by weakinging science curriculums by including ID speculation as if it were science.

267 posted on 09/12/2002 2:03:19 PM PDT by donh
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Tell you what, donh, I have been up now for over 16 hours, and we seem to be basically repeating ourselves here. I have also been participating in the soon to be war threads, and am beat. Why don't you come up with some new arguments, or we can just agree to disagree on this. I'll be sure to check back tomorrow.

God keep you.

268 posted on 09/12/2002 2:04:47 PM PDT by donh
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To: donh
OK - We can present you view too... that some people feel that nothing that cannot be proven should even be included in discussion of Science. Happy? Class? - What do you think?
269 posted on 09/12/2002 2:06:46 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
In this realm, you are not free to legislate as you damn well please just because you are a majority, unless you are overly fond of anarchy or tyranny

As a matter of fact, if I have a sufficiently large majority (a Constitutional majority), I can change every word in the Constitution and the Amendments, including, as an example, establishing a national religion. All it requires is 2/3's of each house of Congress, and 3/4's of the state legislatures.

Indeed you could--if you are overly fond of anarcy and tyranny. It is very tough on people to have to re-establish a basis for the common law, and it is rare to get it right. that's what's so insanely great about our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Useless as they are now, they served us well for 250 years--longer than the Roman Republic lasted, longer than the reign of any benign monarch. A triumph in a realm where punting and going belly-up is the common expectation.

270 posted on 09/12/2002 2:14:02 PM PDT by donh
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To: HairOfTheDog
OK - We can present you view too... that some people feel that nothing that cannot be proven should even be included in discussion of Science

That is not my view. Since David Hume, most scientists and philosophers of science have been of the opinion nothing in the natural sciences can be proven. You can only develop (or lose) high confidence in a theory, you can never prove it--the tools for doing so do not exist, as they do in formal mathematics.

What I have contended, in my opinion, quite sensibly, is that what most scientists think is science is what we should teach as science. Likewise, I hold the opinion that what most dictionary consultants regard as good grammar should be taught as good grammar.

271 posted on 09/12/2002 2:21:41 PM PDT by donh
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Interesting quotes from Washington. Since you have them so handy, I am certain that if had ever said anything to support the idea that the government should forbid religious beliefs from being expressed in public institutions, you would have cited them. Since you failed to do so, it is obvious that no such statements exist.

Uh huh. No one says that. What the current court says is governments can't spend money on it. No court finding, of which I am aware, nor any statement of Washington's, forbids a student or a legislative representative, or a postman from saying a prayer. It prevents them all from perverting an expensive public forum into a pulpit for the benefit of one religion to the exclusion of others.

As was obviously intended by Washington (and from the quotes I have given) , Madison, the Establishment clause, and the current Supreme Court.

272 posted on 09/12/2002 2:49:55 PM PDT by donh
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To: Aric2000
Faith based beliefs, such as creationism should NOT be taught in schools.

Well evolution is a faith-based belief too. Nobody was around then to measure red-shifts, luminosities, rotational and translational velocities, radiation backgrounds, density fluctuations and whatnot. Interesting stuff, to be sure, but it belongs to the theoreticians. As any decent experimentalist knows, extrapolation can be tricky.

273 posted on 09/12/2002 2:50:03 PM PDT by maxwell
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To: maxwell
This is debate focusses on three issues really; first, weither Creationism is soemthing that should be taught in schools; second, should Evolution Theory be taught with or without any counter balance and should schools who teach it go out of their way to explain that it is indeed a theory; and third what is or should be allowed by law.

In addition to those three topics there is also the additional issue of if weither Creationism should can be justified scientificly or can Evolution Theory be justified using the bible. My personal religious beliefs demand that science and religion must be in harmony; without science to back up parts of religion it becomes dogmatic and stale, and without religion for science we lose our moral bindings.

First lets handle the issue should a religious belief be taught in schools.

We live in a Secular nation, but one who like many other secular countries our laws and beliefs are based on a religion and that religion is Christianity.

(from dictionary.com)
sec·u·lar Pronunciation Key (sky-lr)
adj.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.
4. Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.
5. Occurring or observed once in an age or century.
6. Lasting from century to century.


n.

1. A member of the secular clergy.
2. A layperson.

But in this country many of the people who founded it are were from religious sects that were not widely supported or even harrased by their local government(s). For instance the "pilgrims" were of a religious sect, puritians, that was widely persecuted in England and sought a place where they could practice their brand of Christianity without such persecution. The puritian movement had such an effect that when our constitution was drafted special protections were granted to those who wished to practice their own religion whatever it maybe.

The original intent of that clause was to allow anyone to practice their version of Christianity without persection from the state and to prevent the state from choosing or making a version of Christianity it's own. In the centuries following that we have taken that meaning to implay any religion or any sect of any religion. So it has become the duty of our nation and any of our local governments not to promote one religion in particular, even if a majority of it's people practice it. This does not prevent anyone associated with the state in any way from practicing their religion it merely protects us from the undue influence from the state. On that grounds since our public schools are an embodyment of the state it is only logical, and prudent to keep the schools as secular as possible and leave the schools only to teaching that which is of a secular nature, thus Creationism does not fit that profile.

On the issue of Evolution Theory, is there not a saying that God works in mysterious ways? I would consider Evolution if it is true to be that. Were Evolution proved true what would it change? Perhaps God in some mysterious way lobbed a lightening bolt down into a pool of water and that spark created some simple celled orginism that eventually became man. Could he not in the billion years it took for those orginisms to form into creatures guide their creation in such a way that he infact did give life, souls and intellect to us all? (well most of us, that is) Was belief in God broken when Capernicus turned his glasses to the sky and found that the sun did not revolve around the earth and that instead the earth revolved around the sun? No, it mearly broke the principles of Aristotle that the Cathlic church was built on. To claim that a Theory at best is defunct because it contridicts the bible could very well be considered a sin to God since it would forbit is from looking at a theory that could allow us to look at God and appreciate his mysteries that much more. If an interpetation of the bible goes up against science and one or the other is wrong I am willing to bet that it is the interpetation of the bible rather than science, since from what is written in the bible more than one gleaning can be made.

Lastly, can science be used to back up Creationism? No, creationism in it's current from does not conform with what we know, we know how the earth was formed we know when it was formed, and we know how old the entire universe is. The belief that God created everything day by day in our senses is quite a streach since we know the earth was not formed in one day the sun did not light up in just one day, the oceans were not formed in just one day and so forth and so on. It is only logical that man was not formed in one day nor was the rest of creation, atleast not in our sense of days, as it is written a day is but a thousand years.

The teaching of religious beliefs is not something for our government, I would rather them not instruct on the matter than risk the chance they instruct incorrectly. Religion is something to be taught by parents not the government and not through the government. The problem is that too few parents actually want to bother with their child's education and consider school for their children nothing more than tax supported day care. These parents become obssively upset when they find that the day care actually exists to try to instruct their children.
274 posted on 09/12/2002 10:34:04 PM PDT by Brellium
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To: maxwell
Well evolution is a faith-based belief too.

Everything anyone believes is faith-based. Even mathematical proofs.

275 posted on 09/16/2002 1:23:08 PM PDT by donh
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