Replies

Yeh, I keep asking the Materialist True Believers to splain to me by what infinite magic came the laws of physics and to point to that vast array of transitional forms and all I get is rhetoric.

Gee! I'm sorry, Phaedrus! As long as you've been around, I had no idea that when you asked for transitional forms all I had given you was rhetoric.

The Evidence for Dinosaur-Bird Transition.

The Fossil Record. Excerpts follow:

The top two skulls are very early mammals. The others increasingly old mammal-like reptiles except for the basal reptile Hylonomus at the bottom. Anyway, the text says the following about them:

There are many skeletal features which allow us to distinguish the reptiles from the mammals (Carroll, 1988; Table 1, rows A, M). The single most important defining characteristic is the nature of the articulation of the lower jaw to the skull (Simpson, 1959). In reptiles, multiple bones comprise the lower jaw. A small bone at the posterior end of the lower jaw, the articular, articulates with the quadrate bone of the skull (Simpson, 1959; Carroll, 1988). In mammals, one large bone, the dentary, comprises the lower jaw. It articulates with the squamosal bone of the skull (Simpson, 1959; Carroll, 1988).
. . .
When placed in proper geochronologic succession, the synapsids naturally form a succession of taxa (genera and families) that progressively become more mammal-like and less reptile-like (Kemp, 1982, 1985; Sloan, 1983; Sidor & Hopson, 1998; Hopson, 1987, 1994). Morphologic changes, summarized in Table 1 and Figure 1, affect the entire skeletal anatomy of these animals, but are most clearly displayed in their skulls.
The lateral temporal fenestra increased in size from a tiny opening smaller than the eye socket to a giant opening occupying nearly half the length of the skull. Ultimately, it merged with the eye socket, thus producing the full development of the cheek arch so characteristic of mammals (Broom, 1932; Frazetta, 1968; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Carroll, 1988).
Successively, the relative proportion of the lower jaw comprised of the dentary bone (teeth-bearing bone) gradually increased until the entire lower jaw consisted of the dentary (Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988; Hopson, 1987, 1994). In Pennsylvanian and Lower and basal Upper Permian synapsids, the postero-dorsal edge of the lower jaw rose broadly but only slightly above the level of the tooth row (Romer & Price, 1940; Currie, 1977, 1979; Ivakhnenko, et al., 1997; Tchudinov, 1960, 1983; Efremov, 1954; Olson, 1962; Sigogneau & Tchudinov, 1972; Hopson, 1987, 1994). In succeeding forms, the posterior part of the dentary expanded dorsally and posteriorly as a blade-like process, and progressively became larger (Broom, 1932; Boonstra, 1963, 1969, 1971; Sigogneau, 1970; Brink, 1963; Kemp, 1979; Hopson, 1987, 1994), forming the coronoid process (Parrington, 1946; Fourie, 1974; Romer, 1969b, 1970b, 1973; Hopson, 1987, 1994) to which the mammalian-type jaw musculature is attached (Barghusen, 1968; Bramble, 1978; Crompton, 1972; Crompton & Parker, 1978; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). Concomitantly, the post-dentary bones progressively reduced in size (Allin, 1975; Crompton, 1972; Crompton & Parker, 1978; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988; Hopson, 1987, 1994).
Beginning with the Upper Pennsylvanian sphenacodonts, a notch developed in the angular bone that offsets a projection, the reflected lamina (Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Romer & Price, 1940; Currie, 1977, 1979; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). The reflected lamina first became a large blade-like flange (Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Ivakhnenko, et al., 1997; Tchudinov, 1960, 1983; Efremov, 1954; Olson, 1962; Sigogneau & Tchudinov, 1972; Broom, 1932; Sigogneau, 1970; Boonstra, 1963, 1969, 1971), and then was progressively reduced to a delicate horseshoe-shaped bone (Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Brink, 1963; Parrington, 1946; Fourie, 1974; Romer, 1969b, 1970b, 1973; Kermack, Mussett, & Rigney, 1973, 1981; Kemp, 1979, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). Simultaneously, the quadrate progressively decreased in size (Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). The articular did not decrease in size much, being small initially, but developed a downward-pointing prong (Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). In the synapsids, the lower jaw was hinged to the skull by the articular and quadrate bones (Crompton, 1972; Crompton & Parker, 1978; Allin, 1975; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994). Thus they are classified as reptiles (Simpson, 1959; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). As the quadrate and articular became smaller, they were relieved of their solid suture to the dentary and skull (Crompton, 1972; Allin, 1975, 1986; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Crompton & Parker, 1978; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). A projection of the dentary extended posteriorly and made contact with the squamosal. Morganucodon possessed the mammalian dentary-squamosal jaw joint adjacent to the reptilian articular-quadrate jaw joint (Kermack, Mussett, & Rigney, 1973, 1981; Carroll, 1988). It is classified as the first mammal, but it is a perfect intermediate. Now that a new jaw joint was established, the quadrate and articular were subsequently relieved of that function (Crompton, 1972; Allin, 1975, 1986; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Crompton & Parker, 1978; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988). Ultimately, in Middle and Upper Jurassic mammals, the tiny quadrate, articular, and ring-like angular migrated as a unit to the middle ear where they joined the stapes and became the incus, malleus, and tympanic bones (Allin, 1975, 1986; Allin & Hopson, 1992; Hopson, 1987, 1994; Kemp, 1982; Sloan, 1983; Carroll, 1988).

The "For Dummies" version of Hominid Evolution, You Figure It Out!

A platypus forerunner, Obdurodon dicksoni.

Hans Thewissen's Cetacean Evolution Page with links at the bottom to individual fossil ancestors, including walking (Pakicetus) and amphibious (Ambulocetus) "whales."

I particularly can't believe I've never posted you the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils!

Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record, another very good overview.

I could go on--somewhere there's a great horse evolution site I've lost track of--but I hope that's non-rhetorical enough for now. My apologies for the oversight.

OK, Vade, take offense, but my post was not directed at you particularly or even primarily. But since you brought it up, let me give you my short version:

Yes, there does appear to be a succession, somewhat loose perhaps. But succession has not been established scientifically; i.e. there has been no credible mechanism that is supported by the evidence. There have been lots of lies, lots of lies, perpetrated by the so-called scientists -- Haeckel and on and on. Mutation is a wholly destructive non-starter. "Chance" is a howler. No mechanism, Vade, just fruit flies that are bred in the lab into monsters but then revert quickly to the norm when subsequently left to their own devices, Galapagos bird beaks that enlarge with unusual dryness, then revert to the norm with a return to climate normality.

You post a link to Talk.Origins. That site is one big lie. I have parsed their stuff before and its all rhetoric and misrepresentation.

Abiogenesis is taught as fact, yet is is none such, it is a gleam in the eye of hopeful atheists.

I do not attack you, Vade, but the Evolutionist case has simply not been made. Yes, I agree that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. But you know that I am not a literal Biblical Creationist. And I agree life has increased in its complexity over geological time. And I agree that the same amino acid bases comprise the genetic alphabet for all life.

Now this does not in any way establish that life came from non-life of its own magical accord or that one species evolved into another or that the Universe is comprised solely of material, and most emphatically the latter. Vade, the biologists don't know but they are not honest about it. They have conferences where they engage in an activity they call "tree-building". The physicists do not hold conferences where they engage in "formula-building" in any sense similar to the biologists.

It's about evidence, Vade. Show me. I've been lied to for a very long time.