Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Are We Dancing Around with Immorality while Avoiding Criminality?
Harvard Law School ^ | November 2001 | Steven Shavell

Posted on 04/15/2019 7:59:55 AM PDT by Great Awakening

It is evident that both law and morality serve to channel our behavior. Law accomplishes this primarily through the threat of sanctions if we disobey legal rules. Morality too involves incentives; bad acts may result in guilt and disapprobation, and goods act in virtuous feelings and praise. These two very different avenues of effect on our actions are examined in this article from an instrumental perspective. The analysis focuses on various social costs associated with law and morality, and on their effectiveness, as determined by the magnitude and likelihood of sanctions and by certain informational factors. After the relative character of law and of morality as means of control of conduct is assessed, consideration is given to their theoretically optimal domains – to where morality alone would appear to be best to control behavior, to where morality and the law would likely be advantageous to employ jointly, and to where solely the law would seem to be desirable to utilize. The observed pattern of use of morality and of law is discussed, and it is tentatively suggested that the observed and the optimal patterns are in rough alignment with one another.

(Excerpt) Read more at papers.ssrn.com ...


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: criminality; culture; harvardlawschool; liberalagenda; morality; noob; paragraphs; superstition; welcomethenoob
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-85 next last
I'm interested in discussing the effects of Culture, Religion & Government in the Politics. Who & why do we cycle back & forth in the establishment then breakdown of a civil society? Is there a paradoxical conflict between the individual & society? What are the underlying causes of our current social problems?
1 posted on 04/15/2019 7:59:55 AM PDT by Great Awakening
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

This all goes back to the feel good 60s.


2 posted on 04/15/2019 8:04:03 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

Before discussing this, define “morality.” Is it what the law says? what colleges say? what the ordinary folk think? what atheists like bammy say?

No definition, no discussion.


3 posted on 04/15/2019 8:04:31 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Lying Media: willing and eager allies of the hate-America left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

Well, it looks like Chicago’s new mayor doesn’t think lawbreaking is too serious in the Smollette case.

https://thegrapevine.theroot.com/chicago-mayor-elect-lori-lightfoot-confirms-jussie-smol-1834046133


4 posted on 04/15/2019 8:05:29 AM PDT by gloryblaze
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: I want the USA back
"Before discussing this, define “morality.” Is it what the law says? what colleges say? what the ordinary folk think? what atheists like bammy say? No definition, no discussion."

And such a discussion will lead you to the fact that apart from a transcendent God there can be no objective morality. There can only be legal, illegal and personal preference. These are all subjective and can change from day to day.

5 posted on 04/15/2019 8:10:20 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

This comment suggests the author doesn’t think very carefully:

“These two very different avenues of effect on our actions”

Morality and law are not “very different.” In fact, one of the primary goals of the immoral is to deceive people into thinking they are different.

Law always comes from morality.


6 posted on 04/15/2019 8:13:30 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

Our Government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the Government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means — to declare that the Government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal — would bring terrible retribution!!

– Louis Brandeis (1856-1941)


7 posted on 04/15/2019 8:13:30 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Anyone trusting the media has failed a competency check or/and is a paid troll for the lefties.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

“Your notion that the Constitution is in some sense law must rest upon an obscure philosophic principle with which I am unfamiliar.”

— Unnamed Harvard Law professor to Robert Bork, from “The Tempting of America” (1990)
That is pretty much the measure of what comes out of Harvard Law School, with few exceptions (and former dean Elena Kagan was not one of those exceptions).

And welcome to FR.
8 posted on 04/15/2019 8:14:33 AM PDT by Olog-hai ("No Republican, no matter how liberal, is going to woo a Democratic vote." -- Ronald Reagan, 1960)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: reasonisfaith

Whenever you hear someone say “You can’t legislate morality,” you can be sure they are either lying or they’ve believed a lie.

Legislation always originates from moral thought.


9 posted on 04/15/2019 8:15:20 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: circlecity

Yet God is not in the morality business. We cannot be “good”. We can only be “bad”.
Morality is a pretty obvious thing. Don’t enslave people. Don’t murder people. Don’t treat people as being lower than you. Don’t lie in order to gain or hurt. Don’t cheat. Etc.
The problem is that man tries to justify his bad behavior.


10 posted on 04/15/2019 8:16:14 AM PDT by AppyPappy (How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: I want the USA back

Agreed. First, define morality.


11 posted on 04/15/2019 8:16:24 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AppyPappy

Moral law can only come from God.


12 posted on 04/15/2019 8:17:52 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: reasonisfaith

“Legislation always originates from moral thought.”

Yep. It’s all morality. It’s morally wrong to murder.


13 posted on 04/15/2019 8:19:24 AM PDT by AppyPappy (How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: circlecity

Although man’s law when built on God’s law is objective.


14 posted on 04/15/2019 8:19:25 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Great Awakening

To Steven Shavell I would say you can identify moral questions if they start with the word “should” or the word “ought.”

From there the connection with law is fairly straightforward.


15 posted on 04/15/2019 8:21:46 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AppyPappy
You need to make up your mind

Yet God is not in the morality business.

and

Morality is a pretty obvious thing. Don’t enslave people. Don’t murder people. Don’t treat people as being lower than you. Don’t lie in order to gain or hurt. Don’t cheat. Etc.

The second statement is pretty much straight from the 10 Commandments.

Which God gave to us.

And HE defined.

So I would say that God is all about "the morality business."

16 posted on 04/15/2019 8:21:51 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux - The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: AppyPappy

I agree wholeheartedly.


17 posted on 04/15/2019 8:22:18 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (What are the implications if the Resurrection of Christ is a true event in history?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: I want the USA back

I remember a time when most of America defined morality as a system of standards defined by a religion, and ethics as a system of standards defined by society.

Sad that once common definitions are now challenged.


18 posted on 04/15/2019 8:22:29 AM PDT by MrEdd (Caveat Emptor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AppyPappy

Who says God is not in the morality business. His word to us is steeped in the morality business. And no morality is not so obvious. Apart from God there is nothing to establish anything as objectively “right” or “wrong”.


19 posted on 04/15/2019 8:23:27 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: reasonisfaith

Short of God speaking from Heaven, you will never get a consensus on what is God’s Law. To some, eating shellfish is immoral. To some, it is not. To some, stoning someone for saying they are the Messiah is moral. To some, it is not.


20 posted on 04/15/2019 8:23:31 AM PDT by AppyPappy (How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-4041-6061-8081-85 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson