Posted on 01/20/2016 5:03:47 AM PST by Kaslin
#2 Please provide anything that will support j.davis statement that he asked Major Anderson to please not fire on his forces, unless fired upon first, and that Major Anderson refused this request (besides jeff saying it to his Congress).
#3 Did jeff davis suffer from delusional paranoia? Did he react to things that didn't actually happen?
"This proposal was refused and the conclusion was reached that the design of the United States was to place the besieging (Confederate) force at Charleston between the simultaneous fire of the (U.S.) fleet and the fort. There remained, therefore, no alternative but to direct that the fort (Sumter) should at once be reduced."
jeff davis had no alternative but to reduce a federally owned/occupied fort based on a vague conclusion?? Are you friggin kiddin me? That A-hole started a war that caused the death of 600,000 Americans based on miscalculating Lincolns intent?!
There was no Damocles Sword, there was no invading tyrant. Except in j.davis' diseased mind.
I understand the country was divided. There’s a joke that Lincoln told about Maryland. For another time. Sounds like Maryland gave Breckinridge a mandate.
Nobody here disputes the high quality of Federal Colored Troops. But that is not what this thread is about.
You answer the question. What inalienable right did the Buchanan Administration violate so badly that the only answer for the Southern States was secession. You States Rights folk should be able to handle that easily.
All well and good. The Fox plan to resupply the Fort consisted of a string of boats being towed by a steam powered tugs past several Confederate batteries to land provision at the fort. Hardly an all out assault on the Confederate defenses of Charleston.
Bfl
The lost cause losers are hair-splitting with you but I knew that you were referring to the various Declaration Cause documents put out by South Carolina and four other states: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html
They all list slavery as their principle complaint.
For later
Reread my post #84 above.
No, there were black slaves forced to serve the Confederate Army, tens of thousands of them.
Some were even forced to fire at Union troops, as the example I quoted in post #84 points out -- forced.
The most notable free black Confederate regiment was the 1st Louisiana Native Guards (CSA) -- all volunteers, unpaid, supplied their own uniforms & equipment.
They first formed on May 29, 1861 and were twice ordered by Confederate authorities to disband -- on February 15, 1862 and again on April 25, 1862.
The volunteer Confederate 1st Louisiana Native Guards served no purpose and fought no battles.
After the second order to disband, some of those previous Confederate troops joined the new Union 1st Louisiana Native Guards (USA), where they served & fought honorably.
Confederate 1st Louisiana Native Guards:
Death of Union free-black Captain Andre Cailloux, 1st Louisiana Native Guard (USA)), at the Battle of Port Hudson, May 27, 1863
DiogenesLamp: "Income Taxes, property taxes, Since I believe it was BroJoeK that came up with the 50% number, and since he is on your side, I will let him explain it to you.
This would be one of those "admissions against interest" and therefore you know it is likely to be the truth."
The Truth takes no sides & has no agenda.
The logic here is circuitous, to say the least, but it does work: the US Federal Government collected no taxes -- none -- on exports, so money from no crops grown in the South and sold overseas went directly into Federal coffers.
But the Federal Government did collect tariffs on imports, and indeed in 1860 this was it's largest (by far) source of income.
Import tariffs were mostly collected in major Northern ports like New York, Philadelphia & Boston.
But, so the argument goes: where did the money to pay for all imports come from?
Answer: from exports, of course, and the biggest exports were Southern agricultural products, most notably, cotton and tobacco.
The export numbers we have for 1860 vary depending on source, but it's pretty clear that cotton alone was at least 50% of total exports and tobacco another 5%.
This is how pro-Confederates (then & now) like to claim the war was "all about taxes" and how Lincoln could not live without revenues from Southern crops.
If the South refused to export, then there'd be no money to pay for imports and, correspondingly, no income for the Federal treasury.
That's why Lincoln started the war, so they claim.
Well, there are several points to make here:
As for the claim that "Lincoln started the Civil War", that's just stuff and nonsense.
In fact, the Confederacy for months provoked war, started war, formally declared war and sent military aid to pro-Confederates fighting in Union Missouri, all before a single Confederate soldier was killed directly in battle with any Union force, and before any Union army invaded a single Confederate state.
The best historical analogies are:
Still is. Threads like this and the mountain of Trump threads prove it. Divisions within divisions....
Is cowboyway a blast from the past?
I seem to recall such a poster from years ago, haven't seen him around so much lately.
Is this the same poster?
As I remember, the older one was pretty rough around the edges, much preferred insults to actual history.
DiogenesLamp: "And of that, I have become convinced.
Lincoln was a very shrewd operator..."
"Shrewd operator" or dolt, Lincoln "suckered" nobody.
He merely, as President Buchanan had in January, sent ships to resupply the Union troops in Union Fort Sumter, fully informing the South Carolina governor of his intentions.
And just as they had in January, Confederates again fired on Union resupply forces, but this time also fired on, and demanded surrender from Fort Sumter.
In both January & April the choice for violence was the Confederacy's, and in April that choice went beyond "provocation" to actual initiation of war with the United States.
Three weeks later (May 6, 1861) the Confederacy confirmed its intentions with a formal Declaration of War against the United States, simultaneously sending military aid to pro-Confederates fighting in Union Missouri, calling up another 400,000 troops and ordering military supplies from abroad.
In the mean time, no Confederate soldier had been killed directly in battle with any Union force, and no Union Army had invaded any Confederate state.
So the choice to start war was strictly the Confederacy's, not Lincoln's.
Those numbers came from a readily available google link.
The source does not appear to me as pro-Confederate propaganda, so I have no reason to dispute it.
However, the important point to grasp here, as illustrated by the quote in post #84, is that these were virtually all slaves -- forced to serve at gun-point.
Tens of thousands were support workers -- cooking, cleaning, setting up camps, building fortifications, driving supply wagons, etc.
And smaller numbers of slaves were forced to stand and fight.
Appears to be the same. Hasn’t improved with age or experience.
That order is dated April 4, signed by General Scott.
Those were Lincoln's final orders to Fox, whose resupply mission sailed on April 10.
So the decision to use Lincoln's resupply mission as the excuse to launch military assault on Fort Sumter (April 12), and war on the United States rested squarely with Jefferson Davis.
Summary of article in Southern Heritage magazine, 2009.
Thanks. Though I doubt our current leadership would respond with force if the Cubans decided to retake Gitmo.
Thanks
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.