Replies

“From the perspective of these “outsiders”, I’m sure they believed that they were the ones who got it correct.”

I don’t doubt that for a minute!

“Whether or not any of them took the same position about the body as the Reformers is probably not knowable.”

It is, actually. Virtually all of them believed that their group was The Church. If one looks at their structure, these groups were in virtually every observable institutional aspect, just like The Church. But their theologies were off from that of The Church.

“At any rate, every one of them claimed to be part of The Church Christ would know whether or not they were in His flock, kept in a different pen.”

Not really. They claimed they were “The Church”, not part of it or part of some amorphous invisible church.”

“If the Early Church Fathers had declared all members of these groups to be ipso facto damned, it would support innovation later adopted by the Church.”

Yes, had they said that, it would have supported the later Latin position, but the consensus patrum didn’t.

“Either a see has autonomy over its portion of the flock or it does not.”

Now you see, that’s a very Orthodox point of view, in broad sweeps. Pre-supposing bishops in the Apostolic Succession, correct teaching (which is to say non-heretical) and valid sacraments, the Latins would argue that a local diocese does not have autonomy of any sort as all dioceses are subject to the immediate jurisdiction of the Pope. The fullness of The Church can thus only be found in those dioceses collectively which are in communion with Rome. Orthodoxy, on the other hand, takes the position that the fullness of The Church is found in a single diocese.”

“Meanwhile, a Lutheran Rite pops into the fold... kind of.”

Ah, that’s an excellent example of what I am talking about; hierarchial, liturgical, centered on a eucharist and yet not looked upon as “The Church”, as a general proposition at least, by either Orthodoxy or the Latin Church. The consequences of that view for the theosis of Lutherans, however, are very different, a “who knows?” with a shrug from Orthodoxy and, traditionally, damnation from Rome.

By the way, I find some Lutherans amazingly Orthodox in both praxis and mindset. really a shame they didn’t join up with Orthodoxy back in the day.