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To: metmom
If those things are adequate evidence for scientists, the the written testimony of people who lived with Jesus and talked to Him is adequate to use as hard evidence that He lived and died and is everything He said He was, so when He said that God created the heavens and the earth, it has all the weight of the scientific peer reviewed research papers that scientists put their faith in.

Where may these written testimonies be found? What peer review exists for these written testimonies? How can the events described in these testimonies be reproduced for independent observation by others?
921 posted on 09/26/2006 6:07:22 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio
To keep it simple, we'll just deal with the life of Jesus for now.

Where may these written testimonies be found?

Um, in the Bible. To be specific, the New Testament; all of it.

Here are some links to the text in the original language:
http://biblestudytools.net/InterlinearBible/
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/gnt/
http://www.ntgateway.com/greek/

What peer review exists for these written testimonies?

Within the books of the NT, the writers often refer to what other writers have written. IF that were false, they would have stated so.
Luke 1:1-4 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

I John 1:1-3 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life -- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us -- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

How can the events described in these testimonies be reproduced for independent observation by others?

Simple, anybody can do it (run the experiment , if you will); it's just a matter of repenting and trusting Christ for salvation. When that happens, a person is spiritually reborn. It happens every time. There are millions of people whose lives are changed as a result of this. They consistently give the same account. It can be observed internally by the person doing it and externally by seeing the change in the lives of the people who have done it. It's been well documented over thousands of years and there are people on this forum right now who can give testmony to that very thing happening in not only their lives but hte lives of their family and friends.

939 posted on 09/26/2006 7:29:24 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Dimensio; metmom
Empirical evidence is given for the death and resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts which science cannot contradict. They are more certain than any other historical events. The scriptures record eye witness testimony by many people. Many witnesses suffered cruel deaths without recanting. Many others were enabled by the power of God to endure in their faith in spite of tremendous persecutions.

Luke 1:1-4

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them to us, who were eyewitnesses from the beginning, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus, That you could know the certainty of those things, wherein you have been instructed.

John 3:11-12

Truly, truly, I [Jesus] say to you, We speak what we know, and testify what we have seen; and you receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Acts 4:18-20

And they [the high priest and other religious leaders] called them [the apostles], and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said to them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot do anything other than speak the things which we have seen and heard.

2 Peter 1:16-18

For we [the disciples] have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came a voice to him from the excellent glory, saying "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased". And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mountain.

1 John 1:1-3

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have carefully examined, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us;) That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

We have present empirical evidence of the resurrection of Christ. It is that God's Spirit lives inside those who believe. A person can experience this by obeying the Gospel's commands to repent and rely on Christ's death in our place to save us from death.

1 John 4:12-16

No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because he has given to us His Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

If you believe JFK and Lincoln were presidents who were assassinated, you should be able to, on the same basis of historical evidence, believe the historical fact of the death and resurrection of Christ. I know Jesus is alive because He lives in the hearts of believers, including me.
965 posted on 09/26/2006 9:12:15 AM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Dimensio
Where may these written testimonies be found?

Psst! The Dead Sea Scrolls support the written testimony in the Bible. Peer review? There is a whole bunch of it. Now back to your questions which are sure to follow.

1,011 posted on 09/26/2006 12:58:21 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Dimensio
The different books in the New Testament are different books ~ not just the same book written over and over.

Each of the books reports on the observations of different witnesses than the other books.

One of the primary "books" available at the time was the "Gospel of Peter", which paralleled the others quite well, so it was not included in the final product, although it does constitute a 5th witness.

Going beyond that, there is a possibility that the Shroud of Turin constitutes a 6th witness, albeit in photographic form. Even if it doesn't, the Shroud is a rare exhibition of what crucifixion was all about. For all its popularity in Classical Rome, little about the practice was discussed, and there are no learned scientific dissertations that report how it worked to kill a human being. That, BTW, is not evidence that crucifixion wasn't done.

It's been noted that if the Shroud of Turin is a true witness, then the blood stains constitute what is certainly a scientifically valid "sample".

BTW, I've seen others dig into the question of what the scientific evidence is for Jesus' existence, and although I'm not very good at it, I'd suggest the doubters dig some of it up and take a look. Otherwise, they're just talkin' street trash.

1,052 posted on 09/26/2006 2:27:26 PM PDT by muawiyah
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