[thomaswest]

Re 146: I disagree with your premise that parents are to be elevated to gods in bringing up children.

It takes no thought, no understanding of anything, no sense of caring, no intellect whatsoever to make a baby. It has always amazed me that of all the babies born from nutsy parents how many turn out not so bad.

But the notion that parents are to be in control of every aspect of a child is nuts. We all know unfit parents. Society via the police or the church organizations always have had the right to intervene--either to protect the child from his/her parents or to protect society. Unfortunately, church organizations often enough proved unreliable and exploited kids themselves. I think it unfortunate that we now have only police to protect kids--it used to be that the community of neighbors and teachers would bring correction to families (parents and kids) who violated norms.

But the idea that parents should have complete control over their kids' upbringing and education is not a realistic position, given the number of cults and aberrant parents.

[microgood]

Unfortunately, church organizations often enough proved unreliable and exploited kids themselves.

You forgot to mention government organizations. The State of Washington system has a very high track record of physical and sexual abuse as well as many deaths in their system.

In 99% of all cases, the child is much better off with the parents than with the state: governaments do not care about the child, just whatever is easiest for them in the execution of their duties. This is also the same for the Court system, they do what is easiest for them, not the child.

Actually you said churches do not do that well, but they do far better than the state could ever hope. Look at drug treatment programs, the churches acheive success rates in the 70% range, where the recitivism rates in secular programs never reaches double digits. That is because they understand the "humanity" side of the problem, some the secular programs do not even acknowledge.

[microgood]

But the idea that parents should have complete control over their kids' upbringing and education is not a realistic position, given the number of cults and aberrant parents.

And the idea that society should have complete control over their kids' upbringing and education is not a realistic position, given the number of evil governments that have existed. Germany, Japan, Russia, and China are perfect examples of that.

I remember growing up, in school they told us in the Soviet Union children were encouraged to tell on their parents if they did anything disloyal to the Motherland. Our parents of course were smart enough to tell us never talk to any non-family member about the family for this very reason. And yet more and more of this intrusion by government is happening in this country.

The only universal law about government is that it can never be trusted. Never. Thus our Constitution.