[curiosity]

Yes, Jews suffered episodes of persecution in Catholic Europe. You did an admirable job proving it, though I never denied it. What you fail to note is that they also enjoyed long periods of toleration and prosperity in many countries.

In terms of persection, before Hitler, the Jews weren't much different from other minority groups around the world. It is part of the human condition for minorities to endure episodes of persecution at the hands of the majority from time to time. To somehow say Christian Europe was unique in this regard is absurd. Just as absurd as your contention that persecution of Jews was continuous and universal for 1400 years.

Yes, there were some popes and Church Fathers who were anti-semites, but where did I deny that? There were also some who were philosemites.What's your point?

You still have not substantiated your claim that the Church taught that wonton killing of Jews was Christ's work. I stand by my statement that such a teaching NEVER was given.

You have also not substantiated your point that the Inquisition targeted Jews. And no, I have not conceeded this point. Yes, the inquisition did persecute Jewish converts to Christianity who converted dishonestly. That was never in despute. The most you have done is provide a Jewish Encylopedia article that cites ONE INSTANCE in which the inquisition killed about a dozen or so Jews, but it gives no documentation, so forgive my skepticism. Even if this incident happened, however, it's still one incident. That hardly proves your contention that the inquisition targeted Jews.

As to your photos, all they domonstrate is that some SS men went to mass. Well, yes. That's true. Who disputes that? There have been bad Catholcis around at all times in all periods. So what? This hardly proves the Church leadership was somehow complicit with Hitler.

You have yet to substantiate your claim that priests, with the Vatican's permission, accompanied SS troops on Ghetto raids. As evidence, you posted a photo of some Nazi soldiers in prayer next to a machine gun, with one of the soldiers wearing a cross. Sorry, but that doesn't look like a Ghetto raid. Furthermore, there's no indication the man wearing the Cross is a Catholic priest, which seems very unlikely given that he's not wearing a Roman collar.

Your photo of the Nazi Chaplain's hat merley proves the Nazis had Chaplains. Where did I deny such a thing? Again, it hardly proves priests went on Ghetto raids. Furthermore, I see no indication that the hat belonged to a Catholic priest.

You're acting as fast and loose with the evidence as a typical creationist.

Finally, the pictures of Hitler praying and the propaganda posters merely prove that Hitler tried to associate himself publicly with Christianity. That's what I've been saying all along! Again I ask, what's your point?

Well, that does it for me. I have nothing to add to this conversation. You can have the last word. Nice chatting with you.

[donh]

Yes, Jews suffered episodes of persecution in Catholic Europe. You did an admirable job proving it, though I never denied it. What you fail to note is that they also enjoyed long periods of toleration and prosperity in many countries.

Well now, I have to agree that that is admirable in much the same sense that it's admirable that serial killers do not murder every person they see.

Finally, the pictures of Hitler praying and the propaganda posters merely prove that Hitler tried to associate himself publicly with Christianity.

That is utter balderdash, based on carefully not looking at the evidence--a mistake the USArmy intelligence corp did not make in its assessment--much as church apologists would like to wish it so. Look again at the pictures, look at his face. Think about how much time and effort he put into painting religious scenes. Think about the fact that he aspired to the priesthood while quite young. That is not how hypocrisy manifests itself.

Well, that does it for me. I have nothing to add to this conversation. You can have the last word. Nice chatting with you.

Ok, here's my last word. Anyone with two still-functioning neurons to rub together, unless they are desperately trying to avoid seeing it, can tell two things from the available evidence--which I have hardly scratched the surface of--that the catholic church was cheerleading jewish pogroms from the get-go, regardless of the feeble hypocrisy that church clings to, that they didn't actually explicity call for the outright mass murder of jewish communities: they pounded the pulpit for 1400 years about the sub-christian & sub-human nature of jews, they set up laws guaranteed to make them vulnerable, easy targets, they insulted, degraded, and, finally tortured and murdered them--your see-know-evil, acknowledge-yet-deny defense to the contrary notwithstanding. Secondly, to deny the thoroughgoing entwinement between this catholicism, with it's thoroughly embedded anti-jewish tradition, and the everyday workings of Hitler's nazi regime is to wear blinders so tight those neurons we mentioned are being strangled.

Here's what Joseph Ratzinger, our new Pope Benedict XVI, and ex-Hitler youth member, had to say about it:

"...it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity [the Holocaust] on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

This new Pope is not exactly a poster-boy for pro-jewish sentiment in the catholic church, but even he has to acknowledge that the catholic presence in Germany was a far cry from being a source of comfort for the Jews.

This poster brings the point home so well, it's worth repeating.

"When you see a cross, remember the gruesome murder of the Jews on Golgotha..."

A front page of the Nazi publication, Der Stuermer.

Headline: "Declaration of the Higher Clergy/So spoke Jesus Christ: You hypocrites who do not see the beam in your own eyes. (See Matthew 7:3-5) Cartoon: depicts a group of Hitler Youth marching forth to drive the forces of evil from the land. The caption under the cartoon reads, "We youth step happily forward facing the sun... With our faith we drive the devil from the land."

For a christian, particularly a catholic, Not to remember and acknowledge this, is to invite it to happen again, over and over and over--as even a facile examination of history affirms with glaring authority.

This was a monumental sin for all time, against basic human decency, and in my opinion, covering your eyes with your rosary and proclaiming "I see nothing, God's church didn't do this", is a woefully inadequate response.