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To: doc30; betty boop
There is no evidence for it and, if one argues complexity, then there must also be an explanation for what this creative source is and how it operates. ID is an interesting philosophical concept, but does not rise to the level of science. Only those who do not understand the nature of science do not comprehend this situation.

Without philosophy and its wisdom your "science" is nothing but an efficient means to maleficence.

P.S. evidence --- "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

802 posted on 04/22/2006 6:57:25 PM PDT by AndrewC (Darwinian logic -- It is just-so if it is just-so)
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To: AndrewC; doc30; CarolinaGuitarman; Alamo-Girl; marron; hosepipe; Slingshot
doc wrote: Only those who do not understand the nature of science do not comprehend this situation.

To which AndrewC replied: Without philosophy and its wisdom your "science" is nothing but an efficient means to maleficence.

Not to mention that so many prominent scientists actually turn out to be closet philosophers these days. Materialism is a philosophical doctrine, for instance. Metaphysical naturalism likewise.

The problem seems to be that there are two orders of knowledge, or ways of knowing, the natural sciences (physics, chemistry and so forth) and the sciences of the spirit (philosophy, theology, history, sociology and so forth). Each has its own methodology, and its own sphere of investigation. The fact is, even though the two are different in their methods and goals, both are needed to describe a universe. They are actually complementary in this sense.

However, post-Enlightenment, the "Naturwissenchaften [natural science] side" of the great "Cartesian divide" has sought to eclipse and deligitimate the other great epistemic branch (the "Giesteswissenchaften [philosophy et al.] side").

For instance, metaphysical naturalism holds that only those things are real that can be observed. But this is a philosophical statement (an ontological statement in fact). So it seems that some modern scientists wittingly or not are engaging in philosophy without a license and without full disclosure, while deploring legitimate philosophy as dealing with things that really don't exist -- because they are not direct observables, susceptible to scientific test.

To me, the Cartesian split is utterly false. Science has its proper domain and is sovereign there; likewise philosophy, etc., has its proper domain, and is sovereign there. It seems to me neither is "better than" the other, for both are necessary to the complete description of the universe in which we live.

What I would like to see is greater epistemological rigor on both sides. Inevitably science takes its cues from philosophy; and philosophy stands to benefit from scientific insights. Bohr said that science is not so much about the "how" of nature, but about what we can "say" about nature. Questions of why and how -- questions of essence -- really don't fall within the purview of science. At least, historically they have not. But then along comes a Jacques Monod, a Richard Lewontin, a Richard Dawkins; and the two sides of the so-called Cartesian split really get muddled up together.

Well, them be my thoughts FWIW. Thanks so much for writing, AndrewC!

856 posted on 04/23/2006 12:23:29 PM PDT by betty boop (The world of Appearance is Reality’s cloak -- "Nature loves to hide.")
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