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To: Slingshot; King Prout; PatrickHenry
Theists determine to prove that there is a creator through creation. Yet, when science says, "we cannot prove the existance of a creator" the theists will demand that they are being atheists and humanists. So the scientists say, "Okay, I will set out to prove the existance of a deity through sound scientific study to quantify faith.

After the ten year study is finished, the scientist submit that they find no benefit, or slight harm, in a facet of "faith" in a deity. This is unacceptable to the theists' position and they cry foul, saying science has no business sticking its nose in religion. Moreover, the study is interpreted as conclusive evidence that the deity is capricious at best which the theologian says is in the sacred texts. Further, the christian text says that Jews look for a sign while the greeks look for logic and reason but there are none given. It's a mystery: The argument is a no-win situation for the scientist from the start.

Pray tell, which is it? Science can quantify god? Science cannot quantify god?

Still, the theists are brazen. While they will not allow their sacred mysteries of their god-view to be proven (although the bible says repeatedly "prove me now this day") they do not extend the same convenient applications towards evolution. Instead, they couch evolution as a competing FAITH or RELIGION.

They investigate Darwin but balk at any investigation into Jesus, the bible, or any other sacred text.
637 posted on 04/16/2006 10:30:08 AM PDT by sully777 (wWBBD: What would Brian Boitano do?)
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To: sully777; King Prout; PatrickHenry; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; marron; hosepipe; grey_whiskers; ...

I perceive you are using the scientific method to move towards the truth of a matter.

Without sending offense, I will endeavor to answer well posited questions and also redesign the questions if needed.

"Theists determine to prove that there is a creator through creation. Yet, when science says, "we cannot prove the existance of a creator" the theists will demand that they are being atheists and humanists. So the scientists say, "Okay, I will set out to prove the existance of a deity through sound scientific study to quantify faith."

By definition a Theist believes there is a God. He or she needs no Proof. The scriptures do not endeavor to Prove there is a God, they give voice to the movement of the hand of God in the affairs of men.

As for me, I start with the Belief not only that there is a God, I believe he is concerned about everything in the Universe and beyond, no matter how small or large. And that includes me.

How would we go about Proving the existence of anyone. We would seek to show their effect on the environment around them.

Example: At the age of seven I had my right hand almost completely severed by the glass from a broken jar. A country doctor told me to sit on his desk. He deadened the wound and then sewed my hand back to my arm while I watched him. He used a part of a cigar box to give support to my hand and wrapped it with gause and tape. The doctor told my Grandfather I would never be able to use my hand because he could not sew the nerves back together. He just connected two bones and sewed up the flesh. He told me to not try to move my fingers at all.

I followed his instructions. Two months pasted and I and my Grandfather were sitting in the living room waiting for dinner to be served. My Grandfather was reading the newspaper. I was sitting on the couch.

My right hand with the cast on it was in front of my eyes. I began to try to move my fingers. They moved. My Grandfather had been watching me and he sat up and said do that again. I did. He sat back and put the newspaper back up to his face and said the doctor said you would never use you hand. That was all he said.

Today it would have cost at lease a million dollars to have the micro surgery and there would be no guarantee that it would work.

Later I found that people from three churches, my Father and Mother, My Grandparents and many relatives and friends PRAYED for my hand to be healed.

The nerves had to grow back on their own. They were not attached. How could that happen. I have complete use of my right hand.

How could you perform an experiment to duplicate that experience? You can't.

The individual relationship of the individual to God can not be duplicated by man. It must be duplicated by God.

It is not the capricousness of God. It is the lack of forming a relationship with God the way He wants it done.

We must obey Him. But in Romans 3 he says we cannot obey Him if we do not Trust him. Once we Trust and Obey Him then we can ask anything and It shall be done.

That requires Faith.

Faith, Trust, Obedience are all individual matters with God. We have no way to duplicate that because God is the only one that really sees our Heart (our attitude to God).

Therefore, having "Scientific studies to quantify Faith" will never prove the existance of a deity. He only proves Himself to each one of us if we seek Him. I cannot duplicate that for anyone other than myself.

I believe that us "Theists" do not desire to prove there is a God using the scientific method. We desire to examine the handiwork of God using the scientific method.

You see to examine His handiwork is not to just say, God did it" and that all that needs to be said.

Examine His handiwork to see what He has done and how He has interconnected everything in such a way that all of what we see is NEEDED. To be Needed is to be Loved.

Science can not quantify God.
Science can quantify the design made by God.

Speaking of Evolution, Charles Darwin uses the word Accident at least three times on the first page of Origin of the Species. And his work is called "scientific"?

It appears to me that all other scientific endeavors would never allow the use of the word 'accident' except where there is the need to acknowledge the handiwork of God.

You see I hope that it is coming through that what I seek is that the ability, actions and presence of God be dealt with as we deal with other basic elements we investigate while seeking to understand How all this works.

Have a good day.





638 posted on 04/16/2006 12:14:56 PM PDT by Slingshot
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To: sully777
Still, the theists are brazen. While they will not allow their sacred mysteries of their god-view to be proven (although the bible says repeatedly "prove me now this day") they do not extend the same convenient applications towards evolution. Instead, they couch evolution as a competing FAITH or RELIGION.

You already have enough evidence of God's existence to be held accountable by Him for your rejection of Him, and it is implicit in your own words. While expressly denying God you tacitly presuppose reason, standards and values that are only coherent, grounded and justified if God exists. Why, for example, would an accidental Darwinian conglomeration of atoms have something against brazenness? Why would such a bipedal unit expect that the universe or anything in it, including other bipedal units, should be "fair"? How do you account for and justify your expectations of absolute, obligatory standards of reciprocity regarding reason and ethics from other bipedal units?

Cordially,

664 posted on 04/17/2006 9:10:43 PM PDT by Diamond
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